Trying different skis

7 years 9 months ago #20351 by Love2ski
Replied by Love2ski on topic Trying different skis
I'm not a think paddler, I have a v10 sport. But I am absolutely certain an uno is faster than any intermediate boat. Stew is correct in what he says. Also in my limited dealings with him, he is very reasonable in his promotion of think skis and the sport. I think it is unfair to insinuate that he is behaving unreasonably just by stating a fact.

I would be faster on my sport than the uno due to stability issues. That doesn't make my sport faster than an uno. I am also faster on my sport than on my v10 (except in flat conditions). Does that make the sport faster than the v10?

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7 years 9 months ago #20353 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Trying different skis
Everyone can relax. I am fairly certain the max had a 10 inch rudder and the ion had a 7inch rudder. In my experience that would make the boats about the same speed on the flat. Add the fact that the ion is more stable, the paddlers old and fat and that should account for the difference in speed.

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7 years 9 months ago #20355 by fredrik
Replied by fredrik on topic Trying different skis
Thanks Peterpav for the input
Thanks Dicko for your “mellow” message
I continue to be surprised with the fact that the company reps are not able to able to be more differentiated in their standard advice – get a stable boat to avoid missing a single paddle stroke and at all times get the max hull speed.
The manufacturers advice assumes conditions which may not be present:
1) That paddlers want to go from A to B at the quickest possible time, ie highest average speed
2) That paddlers buy a surfski to optimize the average speed in big blowy downwind conditions
3) That paddlers are easily put off by a stability challenge
To start, the idea of assumption 1 is maybe the most erroneous. Out of all surfskis sold, I would argue that very few buyers paddle to max the average speed and to win races. My hypothesis is that most paddlers around the world buy a surfski to have fun.
No doubt in my mind that you get some fantastic surfing and boat glide moments in a fast Uno og Glide, that you would never get in an Eze or XT.
Also the best way to improve stability is to paddle an unstable boat. Period. (stability comes from improved core muscles and coordination in your brain) Either by padding the seat of a stable boat to instability or to paddle the unstable boat. Nothing reveals your technical flaws better than an unstable boat (not saying that techniques sessions should be done in the unstable boat).
Thus, I would have hoped that the company reps could be large enough to comment this thread by saying something like: “Thank you for taking the time to tell us about your surfski run-out. We love to hear that you and your paddling pals are having good fun. Good to see that a wide range of boats can provide a happy feeling on the water ” …. and they could add….. “It would be interesting to see the results if you had the opportunity to do it again on some other occasion or conditions. The results may be different. As company reps we are always interested in hearing some real time experience out there. ”

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7 years 9 months ago #20357 by jamesb
Replied by jamesb on topic Trying different skis
Geez....you're a highly strung mob. Stew's on thread from where I sit and I paddle a new Epic V10, slowly though enjoyably I must admit. Keen to hear the answer to the question posed, over what distance are these speeds achieved....I need to know how low to hang my head!

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7 years 9 months ago #20358 by Love2ski
Replied by Love2ski on topic Trying different skis
Fredrick

Most paddlers where I live (Sydney northern beaches) are keen on going faster. Racing and squads are big. Lots are into new boats and faster boats. So from my experience I disagree with you.

Second your view that you get better on an unstable boat doesn't work for everyone. I can tell you from my own experience that if the boat is too unstable you simply do not develop the correct stroke or apply sufficient power to develop a proper core.

Lastly I disagree with the view aimed at stew. He simply stated a reasonable fact.

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7 years 9 months ago - 7 years 9 months ago #20359 by fredrik
Replied by fredrik on topic Trying different skis
My point exactly, if you compete you should obviously pick the fastest craft for that particular race, regardless of form. If you go for the fun factor , there are more optionality

Stroke technique and stability training can be practiced seperately, even off water.

Lastly, Stew is my favorite company rep! he is patient and answers a question fired his way in a very balanced way.


But I still belive we tend to mystify paddling and model upgrading too much. Most sport institutes will agree that you need 10.000 hours of training to get to a world class level and success is 80% hard work and only 20% talent - so for most of us - there is no need for excuses - hard work and persistence will prevail :-) What a relief!

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7 years 9 months ago #20361 by peterpav
Replied by peterpav on topic Trying different skis
6 boats 3 paddlers. That's 120 permutations.
This was always going to be a subjective test as there was no possibility of getting every one done. Certainly didn't intend to create any angst. As with any test, this is a personal viewpoint and the outcome may be different for other paddlers.

Most sprints were only around 100m. Some went longer especially if the skis were close. Many were shorter if there was a clear winner. I have no doubt that the more stable skis had an advantage later in the morning as we were getting more tired. We had been for a gentle 8km paddle before we started the sprint comparisons.

I'm a bit surprised most of the discussion has centred around the Max vs ION and pretty much ignored all other boats. If someone wants to loan me one of each for a month I'm happy to do a more exhaustive comparison between the two. Quick sprints don't really tell much and are only important on Sunday morning paddles for giving your mates the shits.

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7 years 9 months ago #20365 by Fuyang Guy
Replied by Fuyang Guy on topic Trying different skis
Hey Peter,

Sounds like you guys had a lot of fun, and had a great interval session thrown in.
And probably a couple of cold ones after.

This sounds like as good as it gets. (without wind that is)

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7 years 9 months ago #20390 by Stew
Replied by Stew on topic Trying different skis

Fredrick

Most paddlers where I live (Sydney northern beaches) are keen on going faster. Racing and squads are big. Lots are into new boats and faster boats. So from my experience I disagree with you.

Second your view that you get better on an unstable boat doesn't work for everyone. I can tell you from my own experience that if the boat is too unstable you simply do not develop the correct stroke or apply sufficient power to develop a proper core.

Lastly I disagree with the view aimed at stew. He simply stated a reasonable fact.


Not sure I even worded it as a fact, simply stated my surprise at results, and reaffirmed with my own test results. Maybe the tone was picked up incorrectly. :)

Nonetheless, as a few of the guys have said, spending a morning on the water, with your mates, paddling skis, having fun, well that's what it's all about really

As the thread developed into one concerning craft selection etc, and why as manufacturers we may or may not suggest particular skis for different people, I think this blog I wrote a few months ago outlines my philosophy on paddling well, and with that matching your craft to where you are as a paddler.

www.thinkkayak.com.au/2013/08/the-4-ps-of-paddling/

I think the real positive in the industry the past while has been the introduction of so many new skis which bridge the gaps we used to have. Rather than making a big step from an intermediate boat to an elite boat, for example, guys can still find a new ski which is a challenge, but is still not too big a jump to compromise technique, posture etc too much (Ion, V10 as examples). The particular test the guys did here may show just that, that the Ion went well for particular guys, while the Max didn't.

I think the test also raises for debate the question of how much faster very light weight, and full carbons skis can be.

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7 years 9 months ago #20391 by antonsa
Replied by antonsa on topic Trying different skis
Good one Stew. I have always found your comments well balanced and always in the bigger interest of the sport. Great to see particularly from a paddler with a commercial interest in one particular brand.

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