Carbonology Sport "Vault" a midpackers review

8 years 11 months ago - 8 years 11 months ago #8755 by AR_convert

fredrik wrote: AR convert, just curious, why did you buy a new Vault. The "old" one is/was only 8 months old.


When I first demoed the boat I mentioned it didn't have bungies on the rear deck, something I liked about my V10L. The latest models have introduced the deck bungies, some (what I think are cool)new graphics and some subtle changes to the footplate fittings.

As I had bought one of the first Vaults in Western Australia it could have been mistaken for a Demo boat it's been paddled by so many people at events I've been to. So the Carbonology guys looked after me with a trade-in offer too good to refuse :woohoo: so my old boat will continue now as an "official" demo boat here in WA

It just seems right that my new ski's first time in the water will be at a downwind event tomorrow afternoon B)

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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8 years 11 months ago #8756 by Kayaker Greg
I fitted a weed deflector which works with any rudder and use the smaller rudder on my Stellar in flat waters where weed is an issue. Even with a small rudder weeds can get caught in the gap at the top without the deflector so its a good idea to fit a one.

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8 years 11 months ago #8757 by fredrik
To me this tread has been interesting to follow over the last year. Carbonology started out as an unknown brand with unknown performance.
The solid coverage on this forum has provided a solid and accurate review of the Vault. (Although, I have only tried the Vault for an hour or so).
That mr. Vault (AR_C) now ventures into 2nd generation Vault just confirms the happiness of its owners.
Personally, I ‘m still considering my options wrt a new ski. I felt that directional instability of the Vault was putting me off. So far the Fenn Elite SL it on the top my list, but maybe the new rudder discussions require me to reconsider :-)

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8 years 11 months ago #8759 by AR_convert

Kayaker Greg wrote: I fitted a weed deflector which works with any rudder and use the smaller rudder on my Stellar in flat waters where weed is an issue. Even with a small rudder weeds can get caught in the gap at the top without the deflector so its a good idea to fit a one.


Like this ;)

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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8 years 11 months ago #8771 by AR_convert

heinvr wrote:

Dicko wrote: The problem isn't so much the size, it's where the shaft is placed. When the shaft is too far forward the rudder is ok at low speed, but as you build speed on a wave it creates a lot of "lift" behind the shaft and suddenly it requires a lot more foot pressure
to turn the rudder.


Well said Dicko, here at Carbonology we are particularly aware and interested in rudders and how they affect the performance and feel of our skis.
As you quite rightly note, It actually not so much the size as the pin placement.
We choose a modest, further forward pin placement as our general rudder as it gives a "softer" feel to the paddler. A more agressive rudder is great for an experienced paddler and highly recommended, but can be a bit twitchy for a less experienced paddler.
Both the photos that Thomas has posted are actually used as a bigger or smaller rudder. We have set lengths thta we cut them at depending on the type of ski and the customers needs.
We are hoping to replace our traditional shape (one on the left) with the newly designed one on the right as we find that the increased "rake" moves the centre of lift sufficiently back that we can move the pin to a more aggressive and balanced point and then getting a good compromise between balance while still maintaining a good feel. The foil thickness of the new rudder is also thicker to prevent the rudder from stalling.
Then we still have the Eliptical shape for the extremely confident downwind paddler.
Regards,
Hein


I don't know what you've done with the new rudders but I had a blast today in my first outing on the Mandurah Downwind, rudder was great.

It was only a 2m s/w swell with a 20-25 knot southerly breeze and the 33 paddlers were all smiles, great downwind training. Even got to paddle alongside Walter Chalupski for a few km's until I managed to bury my ski a couple of times in a row at the bottom of some steeper swells (doh!) and let him get away on his V12.

Still happy to have beat the 2 Fenn swordfish paddlers ;) I know, I know, it's about the engine not the boat.... but still, it's fun to beat the new kids on the block B)

And on the subject of engines, the 2nd placegetter was Adam Fahey on a Think Evo II, so no excuse for you Evo II paddlers :P

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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8 years 11 months ago #8773 by Dicko
In the dragon run the results suggest that 10th place Michael Booth was in an Evo. Wonder if they meant Uno?

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8 years 11 months ago #8774 by Stew

AR_convert wrote:
And on the subject of engines, the 2nd placegetter was Adam Fahey on a Think Evo II, so no excuse for you Evo II paddlers :P


The big guy was on a 15kg glass one too, reckons he had a ball on it. He loaned his 12kg Kevlar Max to a guy who won the race.

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8 years 11 months ago #8775 by Stew

Dicko wrote: In the dragon run the results suggest that 10th place Michael Booth was in an Evo. Wonder if they meant Uno?


That would be a typo, Boothy paddles an Uno.

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8 years 11 months ago #8783 by Dicko
Just wanted to talk about the stability on this boat. My missus jumped in the boat today and she has never paddled anything and I mean nothing. She spent 45 minutes in it and came out twice as she came into shore. She tried several times to come out and no doubt amused the guys fishing nearby, but she didn't come out. Now my wife is either a paddling freak or this boat is seriously stable.
The good news is she wants one. I think I've convinced her she's best in my glass one and I should probably get the hybrid. Sweet.

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8 years 11 months ago #8785 by AR_convert

Dicko wrote: The good news is she wants one. I think I've convinced her she's best in my glass one and I should probably get the hybrid. Sweet.


Cool :laugh: Love my Hybrid, light and very stiff and can take a knock (something that concerned me with kevlar lay-ups). At least you know my old hybrid is in Bunbury as a Demo now ;)

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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8 years 8 months ago #9890 by Dicko
Got my new surf rudder last week and what a change it has made.
Previously I was having trouble controlling the boat in any sort of chop going downwind. The rudder would stiffen up at speed and the effort required to steer would force me to oversteer. There was a several second delay before the boat responded and it was difficult to hold a line tracking across the wave, the result was that I tended to broach a lot. The new eliptical rudder seems to have changed everything. It isn't much bigger, if it is bigger at all, it's just a better shape with the post about 1cm aft.
The steering is sharp, but after 1 week it doesn't hold any surprises. I can now travel left and right with no sign of the boat just turning off the back of the wave cos I couldn't steer back down the face.
It's interesting that when Rob compared his paddle on a vault with the swordfish he felt the Vault broached a lot. This was my experience as well. I have an earlier Vault and my rudder was a different shape to the newer version of the boat.
I haven't tried it in a big downwind but I think the control would be awesome. By surf rudder standards it isn't an overly big rudder.
So if you have a vault and want a bit more control downwind consider a new surf rudder

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8 years 8 months ago #9892 by robin.mousley

It's interesting that when Rob compared his paddle on a vault with the swordfish he felt the Vault broached a lot. This was my experience as well.


Very happy to see someone else agree with my impressions...! Sometimes I worry that I'm talking complete BS.

let us know how the new rudder improves it. In my experience the rudder has a varying effect on the tendency to broach. For example, the Mako6 was notorious for broaching and was almost 100% cured by an elliptical rudder; the Mako Elite has much less of a tendency to broach and the benefit of the rudder is more that it's much more sensitive, especially at speed. Of course you pay a little in terms of stability.

Another boat that was radically improved by the elliptical surf rudder was the V10 Sport. I tended to broach pretty badly in the Sport with the standard rudder; but not at all with the elliptical.

I've just ordered an elliptical rudder for the Swordfish. Like the Elite, it doesn't have a radical tendency to broach, but the standard rudder virtually locks up at speed.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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8 years 8 months ago - 8 years 8 months ago #9895 by AR_convert

Dicko wrote: So if you have a vault and want a bit more control downwind consider a new surf rudder


Hmmm, rudder post moved back you say, means I will have to remove my weed guard. Might try to catch up with you one weekend for a downwind and just swap boats before deciding to make the change.

Heading out with the river rudder on for the first time this arvo as I start training for the marathon series, although it wont be over my usual course I will get back to you on my initial impressions.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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8 years 8 months ago #9947 by AR_convert
Dicko, I have put my reflections on the river rudder on the Carbonology Australia Facebook page. As a result have asked Hein to make an even smaller rudder for me.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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8 years 8 months ago #9948 by Dicko
The small rudder definitely increases speed and is noticably faster in a clean downwind. The trouble with a small rudder is if the wind is blowing and the chop is short and sharp it is really hard to control the boat if you have to angle across it. This is the real skill....picking which rudder to use.

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8 years 8 months ago #9985 by Colnagodreaming
Hi Ts-d
can you email me the address of Damian's Pdf book, think it would be pretty useful.

thanks
Tom

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8 years 8 months ago - 8 years 8 months ago #9988 by ts-d
yes.

surfskisupremacy.com/

This is an ebook - pay and they'll send the pdf.

Jürgen Brings from surfskisport in Berlin offers also a very good Book with Dawid Mocke:

www.surfskisport.com/epages/62132843.sf/...with%20the%20Pros%22

The first part is a little bit simple, but the following chapters I found very interesting.


bye
Thomas

seakayaks (Francesconi Esplora, Lettman Polar, Valley Nordkapp Jubilee), Stellar SR

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8 years 8 months ago - 8 years 8 months ago #10211 by AR_convert
Dicko, now that I have had the river rudder on for a couple of weeks now I thought I'd share my experience.

I short, get one!!!! I have been doing all my usual paddling
(mixture of flat & choppy triangle course type paddling, in chop up to 1m) and have found the ski very well mannered and fast.

I did my first Cut Run (12km downwind) with it on, on Sunday arvo in about 17 knot winds and the boat was great. The ski only broached twice when the chop got up over 1.5 metres, but under that I was having a blast and had good control from run to run. I cant see the need to take it off until the winter swells start to build.

Hein is building me a 4 inch rudder for the real river racing...stay tuned!

P.S. I also accidentally knocked my weed guard off so any new rudder wont be a problem now, might wait to see your new surf rudder before re-attaching one for the right position.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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8 years 8 months ago #10214 by Dicko
I,ve got a small rudder as well. When I use it it's like hopping into the skinny boat again. The boats a little more twitchy, a little faster. It feels good to feel the boat twitching when you sit in it. It really is like owning 2 boats. Rob would be better to stick with his SF and buy a small rudder for the flatter days. The only drawback is the boat tends to wander on the flat slightly more. The inherant stability of the boat means you can use a smaller rudder and be no more unstable than an elite ski, yet you go as fast.
Hein and Gary were concerned that the surf rudder would make the boat too reactive, but haven't found that yet. You hardly need to use the rudder to control the boat and the faster you go the rudder still stiffens, so there isn't the violent change in direction you would expect.

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8 years 8 months ago #10220 by AR_convert

Dicko wrote: I,ve got a small rudder as well. When I use it it's like hopping into the skinny boat again. The boats a little more twitchy, a little faster. It feels good to feel the boat twitching when you sit in it.


Maybe because I've owned my boat a lot longer and it feels like it's an extension of me now....but I didnt notice any change in stability :huh:

Dicko wrote: Hein and Gary were concerned that the surf rudder would make the boat too reactive, but haven't found that yet. You hardly need to use the rudder to control the boat and the faster you go the rudder still stiffens, so there isn't the violent change in direction you would expect.


That may have come from my report to them after using Mark's kevlar Vault with a double ski surf rudder on it...I still smile now when I think how it almost threw me out of the ski when I first planted the pedal heading downwind. I did start to get used to it over the 12km but it was a very different feeling ski. I think you suggested the rudder you got was better balanced so that may be the difference.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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