Kai Wa'a Surfski

1 year 2 weeks ago #31499 by downwinda
Replied by downwinda on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
I have to shake my head as to how an announcement about a new ski, has turned into this somewhat heated thread.

The fact is that Ranga is correct in saying that surfskis have been made in the 8.5 kg range for over 10 years, however this is not the norm for skis, and the cost is quite high for these skis, hence the rarity.

The fact is that Ozone does presently make ALL of their outriggers in the 8.5 kg range, and the cost is not extraordinary. US $4,300 is the going price here in the states for a new canoe in that range. Note that for that price it also includes the ama and iakos, so presumably a ski, having less parts, will sell at a lower cost.

I see having ultra light surfskis at a reasonable price to be a good thing, and perhaps other manufacturers will follow suit and offer light boats at a better price than they currently are.

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1 year 2 weeks ago #31500 by davgdavg
Replied by davgdavg on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski

Ranga wrote: Don't like to burst your bubble but ALL ski are monocoque, there is no chassis that the ski bolts onto!
As for one piece construction Nelo have been doing that for many years, all the kayaks are made that way.
It is however possible to make a ski one piece but as there HAS to be a longitudinal stringer through the centre of the construction for strength, they no longer make them that way as they will snap very easily, as has been found to happen.
So just do a bit of research before statements are made that will make you look a bit foolish.

Ranga wrote: Yes a monocoque is a one piece construction, joined separately or not, the structure is still the same, you save weight with no seam and there is no official join on the inside therefore it cannot split, in theory. However under load everything will break, like a fuselage that is why they have internal structures as skis do.

As for a car, most modern cars are monocoque as they have no chassis but still have all sorts of structure to make them stiff.

Bike parts are generally not made the same way as skis would be as the molds for bike parts are steel or ali hence can take a lot of internal pressure from a bladder, a large composite mold cannot take that sort of load so it would still be vacuumed with an internal bag after been blown up with low pressure. That is one way but assume there will be variations out there.

As for Outrigger Zone, without looking at it I would have no idea. All I know most of the outriggers I have repaired are very light but NOT very strong, hence they come to me in a few pieces where I have to make them one piece again.


I guess you must have been in the repair world for a long time, because some people around here that know you seem to respect you, but pretty much anytime we talk about modern carbon construction you are stuck 30 years behind or just plain wrong, and then arrogantly call everyone else ignorant.

Old mechanic cursing anything that doesn't have a carburator syndrome?

"Monocoque chassis" is the term used in the automotive industry for high production vehicles. This means the chassis is one piece, welded together. Things are still bolted to that chassis. There are literally no high production metal cars manufactured without a chassis. None.

High end makers make one piece carbon/comp combination chassis and body. This has been done for ages, I *believe* the iconic F40 was the first street legal production car to do a composite monocoque chassis and the Mclaren the first full monocoque.

Two piece skis with a seam are not true monocoque. Sorry, they just aren't by definition. The very word literally means single shell.

Modern skis/OC/boats with modern construction methods do not need a stringer, that's 20 years old thinking. (That's the entire point of this kind of monocoque structure, obviously)

Now as for molds, again, you are stuck 20-30 years in the past. There is no reason a 20ft+ aluminum mold can't be CNC'd. There are plenty out there throughout many industries. In fact, they say right on their page...
Now to get back to Kai Wa'a:

Let's read between the lines from what is here: outriggerzone.com/company/technology/

1) They say they use 60 psi at 250F for curing
2) They have an 8m and a 15m CNC machine
3) They have both an 8m and 15m autoclave
4) They use pre-preg carbon/foam construction

This pretty much means they are using aluminum molds and the balloon method. Maybe they do some vacuum bagging too, its hard to tell exactly.

In other sporting good equipment they have moved away from the balloon or vacuum methods and have gone to using a foam mold that "burns" off in the curing process. It's easier to achieve complex layups with that method and you get more consistent results. You wrap the foam mold with prepreg, then you place that in a mold and bolt it down to acheive internal pressure, then into the autoclave. My guess is that OCs and surfskis aren't high enough production numbers to make that method realistic though.

Just foolish little me with no research though...
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1 year 2 weeks ago #31501 by tve
Replied by tve on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
I'm following this thread with great interest as I'm totally new to all this glass, composite, carbon stuff. But I'm not sure why the personal insults are necessary... Any chance you guys could share you deep knowledge (which is very appreciated) without calling the other derogative names?
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1 year 2 weeks ago - 1 year 2 weeks ago #31502 by robin.mousley
Replied by robin.mousley on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski

I'm following this thread with great interest as I'm totally new to all this glass, composite, carbon stuff. But I'm not sure why the personal insults are necessary... Any chance you guys could share you deep knowledge (which is very appreciated) without calling the other derogative names?


Yep, I agree.

Two things:
  • The site costs me time and effort and although I intend to try to make some money out of it, it's essentially been a labour of love and has cost me plenty of money over the last ten years. So I'm quite motivated not to let people spoil it and drive members away.
  • I have the smite button. I've only banned two or three people in the life of the site, but I'm quite happy to do it again to keep the peace. Banter and even heated discussion is quite acceptable, but insults and name-calling is not.

Don't forget guys, there's a "report to admin" link - please use it if things are getting out of hand and I will respond.

Having got all that off my chest, I've interviewed Kai to get his perspective on things and I think you'll find what he has to say quite interesting. Please check back in an hour or two for an article.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...
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1 year 2 weeks ago #31504 by tve
Replied by tve on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
> Please check back in an hour or two for an article.
...
> Last Edit: 6 hours 46 minutes ago by robin.mousley.

You didn't go to sleep without posting your interview, did you??? How are we supposed to make it through the day? Already lost one finger to clicking the refresh button incessantly! :-) :-) :-)

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1 year 2 weeks ago #31505 by Jef58
Replied by Jef58 on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
Thanks Rob for all your effort, it is greatly appreciated. I have learned quite a bit about ski's from this site from various forum members and hope the group can keep up the information.

It is hard to distinguish tone or a person's meaning through typed words, so giving benefit of the doubt on some of the responses on this thread, all is ok by me if anything was directed to my response. I hope that no one will be intimidated or afraid to respond to questions or threads in the future...

It is a great site with a lot of knowledge. It would beneficial if some constructors could visit this site to inform us on technical parts of this sport. You are close to some major players in the industry and it could help build a good relationship in the process. Just a thought to eliminate some of what happened in this thread.

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1 year 2 weeks ago #31506 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
Rob thank you for this website. It is THE surfski website used the world over. My life would be poorer without it.

A question about the topic at hand: does anybody know the relative size of the surfski vs OC market? In my landlocked corner of the world it must be 20:1 surfski. But I know OC are more popular in coastal areas and in some parts of the world that ratio might be reversed.

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1 year 2 weeks ago #31509 by robin.mousley
Replied by robin.mousley on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski

You didn't go to sleep without posting your interview, did you???


Ouch! My bad, I'm so sorry! Here it is:

https://www.surfski.info/latest-news/story/1658/oc-manufacturer-kaiwa-a-to-build-surfskis.html

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...
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1 year 2 weeks ago - 1 year 2 weeks ago #31510 by tve
Replied by tve on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
Awesome, thanks for running with this :-).
The dimensions are closest to a V14... (Of course there's more to the shape than width x length)
Why does he have all the seatpads laying around in the photo, is it designed for a seatpad like an OC1? I can't quite tell from the photo...

BTW, this sentence should be boldface: "Much of the speculation in the forum posts about the boat are about the expected weight - given the incredibly light OC1s that are manufactured these days, the writers speculate that your surfski will also be record-breakingly light! What do you expect the ski to weigh?"
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1 year 2 weeks ago #31511 by downwinda
Replied by downwinda on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
Those were all OC-1 seats in the background.

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1 year 2 weeks ago #31513 by robin.mousley
Replied by robin.mousley on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski

BTW, this sentence should be boldface: "Much of the speculation in the forum posts about the boat are about the expected weight - given the incredibly light OC1s that are manufactured these days, the writers speculate that your surfski will also be record-breakingly light! What do you expect the ski to weigh?"


Correct! Fixed.

Thanks!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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1 year 2 weeks ago #31516 by Paddler G
Replied by Paddler G on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
I was lucky enough to paddle prototype a couple of times downwind and it was easily the funnest and possibly the fastest. Unable to verify this as two days are all ways different. The surfing ability of the ski was out of this world.
Tracks beautifully through the water, very little nose diving (no wave deflector required) holds its speed really well. Can’t wait to see it in production.

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1 year 2 weeks ago #31519 by carlosct
Replied by carlosct on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
Responding to the issue monocoque cobstruction With no seam.
Maybe carving a model of expanded polystyrene with CNC, laminating the exterior and then deactivating polystyrene by pouring acetone?

Currently: Fenn Elite S, Think Uno
Previously: Mazu Pro, Mazu Fitness

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1 year 2 weeks ago - 1 year 2 weeks ago #31523 by MCImes
Replied by MCImes on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
3 thoughts on this:

1. Very cool to see ultralight OC construction techniques adapted to surfski,

2. Excited to see what a totally different mindset / paddling experience brings to his design

3. At 16.8” wide, who cares about a ski that only the top 5% of paddlers can paddle? (Around my parts, its closer to the top 1-2%, not having a big K1 community. Only the elites of the elite could stay dry, around me in the eastern us) Especially in any decent sized swell. When he releases something thats 18-19” beam, then i will be excited. Until then this is just a proof of concept experiment in ultralight carbon construction.

I hope the second ski he makes is more approachable to the masses. This is why epic was disproportionately successful; they made skis normal people can paddle

Currently - Swordfish S in Southern California's ocean waters
Past Boats: Epic V10 g0, Stellar SR g1, Fenn XT g1
"When you've done something right, they wont know you've done anything at all"
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1 year 2 weeks ago #31524 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
A little follow up - I heard from an Ozone dealer that the way their seamless OCs are made is indeed an inflatable bladder that is then removed through the breather hole.

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1 year 2 weeks ago #31526 by davgdavg
Replied by davgdavg on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski

carlosct wrote: Responding to the issue monocoque cobstruction With no seam.
Maybe carving a model of expanded polystyrene with CNC, laminating the exterior and then deactivating polystyrene by pouring acetone?


That sounds like a good way to have the EPA come knocking...

Anyhow, like I said, for many things they already do that and then place the foam into an aluminum mold to create the pressure, but I believe the foam is water soluable, sort of like the packaging peanuts.
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1 year 2 weeks ago #31527 by downwinda
Replied by downwinda on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
I just heard first hand that Kai is planning on racing his prototype in the Molokai if there is wind. He just placed 3rd in a very stacked field in the outrigger crossing, only finishing behind two very strong Tahitian paddlers.

With little time in the ski, and a plug that weighs a lot more than the production models we're speculating on, he's not expecting a real high finish. I'll go out on a limb though, and guess that with his knowledge of the channel, surfing skills and fitness level he'll be in or near the top 10 finishers.

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1 year 2 weeks ago - 1 year 2 weeks ago #31530 by tve
Replied by tve on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski

3. At 16.8” wide, who cares about a ski that only the top 5% of paddlers can paddle? (Around my parts, its closer to the top 1-2%, not having a big K1 community. Only the elites of the elite could stay dry, around me in the eastern us) Especially in any decent sized swell. When he releases something thats 18-19” beam, then i will be excited. Until then this is just a proof of concept experiment in ultralight carbon construction.


I thought something similar... How does it work with OC's, can a beginner feel comfortable in the most advanced OC1?

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1 year 2 weeks ago #31531 by downwinda
Replied by downwinda on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
Yes, the learning curve is much quicker in an outrigger. While a new paddler may flip a few times in an outrigger, within a fairly short time they can be comfortable.

There are also options to rig the ama of the canoe in a more or less stable position, so the rigging itself becomes like the difference between an elite and a beginner ski. A boat rigged with a 'heavier' ama will lean a bit left and drag more, but be very stable, while a 'light' rigging will be much tippier but drag less.

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1 year 2 weeks ago #31533 by Paddler G
Replied by Paddler G on topic Kai Wa'a Surfski
As far as I know there will be various models for different abilities. As for the 5% of paddlers. I paddle a V12 and definitely not in the 5% I was easily able to stay in it on two runs of 20-25 and 5-6 feet swell.

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