Leashes with clips

3 weeks 4 days ago - 3 weeks 4 days ago #30428 by JonathanC
I'm lucky enough to have an old walking foot heavy duty Pfaff sewing machine so I've sewn up a leash using velcro fastening each end and fixing to a loop I've sewn to my pfd. Used tubular polyester 25mm webbing which allows me to insert and knot bungy to take up the slack in the leash but when extended it retains the full strength of the webbing.

Used the standard surf leash technique of double overlap at the boat attachment end and a long flat single overlap where I fix to the loop on my pfd. There is a free tab at the end of the velcro and I can quickly release if I have to.

I have a pet hate of leash attachment points in the footwell, particularly with adjustable bailers, having the leash attached to the stern of the boat means that in downwind conditions the boat aligns itself with the wind and isn't broaching, so easy to simply reel the boat in by the leash, no leg leash winding around the boat to sort out before re-mounting.

Been through many options of quick release kite leashes, yachting quick release etc, it's really nice getting rid of the clunking stainless steel fittings and going back to the simplicity of the velcro. I realise there is an inherent weak point in using velcro but I believe the trick is to have a large surface area and design it so that the pull is very much in shear. Having the strong bungy reduces some of the shock on the whole system.
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3 weeks 4 days ago #30431 by Fath2o
It looks like we should all just sit in front of our computers eating Cheetos and watching downwind videos rather than paddling downwind and worrying about our leashes breaking. Give me a break! I have surfed 20' plus waves and paddled in some of the most extreme conditions anyone can imagine with VELCRO leashes and I am still here to talk about it! Get over your selves!
Been there done that for the last 50 years!

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3 weeks 4 days ago #30433 by HangTen
Fath2o,
Your experience is very impressive. While some pithy remarks come to mind about Poseidon's beard, I think it would only detract from the important discussion at hand and so hope you or anyone else didn't take anything I or anyone else said personally.

I think we're all here interested in discussing safety because no one is living vicariously via their computer but getting out on the water in our skis paddling in as challenging conditions as we each can stomach(even with the latest race in Hong Kong, they left a truck at the start in case people turned around when the conditions got hairy the second day) whether that be 20 foot waves or below freezing temps where your eyes lashes are icicled up. The safety equipment is to make sure that it is always a fun experience we can return to boast about at the pub.

That being said, I don't know what your personal investment is in velcro, but typical velcro is really not designed for use in safety equipment(they actually make stainless steel velcro), but for ease of use as well as the inherent discrepancy in the sheer vs. pull strength. Velcro also has a cycle life(how many times you can close and open it before you see serious reduction in strength), each different grade of velcro has tested specifications. Further as Cryder pointed out, you have UV degradation as well as the ease of failure if anything gets between it whether that be grass, floating weeds/debris, sand, or ice forming.

Just on this thread you have Cryder recounting an instance of leash velcro failure and luckily Cryder was there and he clearly has great paddling experience and really quick thinking to come to the rescue of the women whose leash failed at the velcro. I've read plenty of accounts of leashes failing at the velcro where luckily as in the women in Cryder's story they were able to get back on shore. However, this tragically isn't always the case.

I'm really hesitant to even post this out of respect for the tragic human loss and by all accounts a great guy, as I have no interest in it being conflated with an argument on the merits/flaws of velcro, but if it can convince even one person that comes across this thread to examine their safety setup(whether that includes velcro or not) in terms of both equipment as well as procedure to prevent another loss to the world, I truly hope I can be forgiven.

Please respectfully read the account of what happened at the link below:
skinnyski.com/notices/display.asp?Id=23697
The following user(s) said Thank You: Newbflat, supsherpa

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3 weeks 4 days ago - 3 weeks 4 days ago #30437 by Newbflat
Fath2o.... really? I really hope I’m misreading sarcasm.

I’m often mystified at the need of people with over inflated egos to self-aggrandize, insult people and ignore the very real issue being discussed. People have died because of bad leash design and construction. The fact that some or at least one apparently omnipotent paddler hasn’t isn’t a valid argument that there isn’t an issue. Wear what ever funky leash you want, but don’t chastise people for trying to make the sport safer/ gear better. If even one life is saved because of innovations, awareness and reassessment of ones personal gear, it’s all worth it.

While I sit here eating my Cheerios I take comfort in knowing I make my own leashes that won’t brake....Why? Because I was curious about my leashes strength one day and gave my new-ish leash a tug, and the coil came out of the end fitting. This was a ski company branded "heavy duty" leash. And that was it.. I decided I would make my own more than strong enough leashes.
So here is what I have come up with., it’s ever evolving but haven’t changed much in the last few years.
I never liked the coil in the bottom of the ski and liked it even less with the Epic bailer lever down there. Plus have always felt that Velcro is not to be relied on in a saltwater and sand environment. Why? ..Because it fails and it fails reliably. While some Velcro closures are much better than others, most are just crap. In the end I decided that I wanted the leash out of the bucket and behind me. So I use a belt and a leash on a runner behind me. I like this system a lot. It allows me access to the rudder if needed and I never need to untangle anything to remount. My leash is 3 meters of dyneema stuffed inside 1 meter of silicone tubing with a loop at each end. Use silicone tubing as latex/ surgical tubing lasts about 3 weeks in the sun. I have a number of belts that are 2” tubular webbing with different buckles on them, all are feed threw and are not quick release. To connect the leash to the belt I use an (Edelrid Pure Slider locking carabiner). It’s a fast easy auto lock carabiner that’s not too big. I can release it quickly with one hand with little effort. On my Epic and Stellar ski’s I run a line from the rear handle threw the rear deck tie downs and tie it back to its self forming a bridle. I tie on the leash with a one or two loop prusik type knot so I can slide it up and down the runner but it will stay in place. So in reality it doesn’t run freely on the runner but you can slide it as needed. This way I can pull the attachment point back on the runner so it takes up all the slack to the belt and nothing hangs over the side.
Everything works very well but there are two issues. One is the carabiner. It’s aluminum and has some small moving parts. It must be rinsed with fresh water every time or it will stop working/ locking in short order. The other is that it’s not super quick. It’s not slow, but for races removing or clipping on the carabiner could be quicker . I can swap it out for a snap shackle if I need to for a race where it matters.
If you don’t have a rear handle on your ski you can attach a leash to the shock cords/ bungees on the back deck. In that case I suggest getting some Spectra/ Dyneema covered bungee cord. It’s super strong and very UV resistant. One of the benefits of Dyneema is that it’s super UV resentment and should last for years without significant degradation at least for this application. It also makes a great leash itself. I use a length on my V10 double on a runner. It’s not stated on the site but the 3/16, 5mm bungee has about a 1400lbs/600+ kilo braking strength. Check it out here. sgtknots-prototype.myshopify.com/product...a-spectra-shock-cord If you buy some, buy a lot as shipping is expensive even in the US.
My Fenn Swordfish S was more difficult (come on Fenn, bungee attachments on the back deck please) . I epoxied 4 pads on the rear deck and one on the stern to attach bungee and use Dyneema bungee. It will need to rip off 5 attachments to fail.
Is it all overkill?.. you bet. Your leash is I feel just as important if not more so than a PFD. Why settle for anything but bomber. I feel my set up is strong, versatile and simple. I never worry about my leash now and like the way it works.
I really wish someone would make a light duty stainless auto locking carabiner. Or some clip that locks and unlocks with one hand easily and is strong. There are stainless auto lock carabiners but the require a pull down and twist to release and can be tricky one handed in bumps.

Current: Stellar s18s excel
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Epic V10 Double Performance

Had:
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)
The following user(s) said Thank You: nwsurfskier

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3 weeks 4 days ago #30438 by JonathanC
Hey Newbflat, could you please go into a little more detail about the dyneema stuffed into the silicon tube. Do you have to stuff it back in if you fall out of the boat? What size dyneema and what size tube?
I did the runner system for years with a short kite leash with quick release and stainless clips each end, never quite trusted the kite quick release though, prefer the long tubular webbing with internal bungee. Totally agree, if there was a lightish weight stainless locking carabiner it would be perfect for connection to pfd or waist belt.
Lost an OC1 doing a downwinder on Maui a few years ago and had a big swim, personal experience like that changes everything in terms of spending the time to sort out a safe solution.

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3 weeks 3 days ago #30440 by owenfromwales
Thanks Newbflat, that`s great info on your set-up. Any chance you could post some photos of your work?

I used to run a long leash from my PFD to an anchor point at the back end on my spec ski. It was great for ins and outs in the surf. It did have some drawbacks though - it used to get caught around the rudder sometimes when remounting, or the slack would be dragging in the water. These though, wouldn`t be problems if I used a runner system similar to yours, and you`ve just given me an idea!

I paddle a 2g Steller SEi, which has the quite sturdy carry handles set into the gunwales of the seat. Right now I`m imagining that I could run a line from one side handle to the rear carry handle, and then have a short running leash between it and my PFD. The attachments for the rear bungy system could help to keep the line totally clear of the seat. As long as the clip to the running line is smaller than the clips (or knots) to the handles, then it would still work if one of the handles gave out under pressure.

No coils, no length of line tucked under my legs and no line wrapping around my thigh on remount - sounds very exciting! I will get into the research and let you guys know how I get on. Now if only I could get Stellar to put carry handles on the seat of their SEL...

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy

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3 weeks 3 days ago - 1 week 5 days ago #30442 by davgdavg
drr

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3 weeks 3 days ago #30443 by owenfromwales
Just had a look at my SEi. Running a line from the rear handle to one of the side handles would mean the line crossing the seat and possibly rubbing the paddler, but, the bungee anchors have spare line holes! They are the same as the ones on my fishing SOT. I think if the line runs from rear handle and then through one or two of these bungee anchors, it should be job done! I`m off to buy 5 metres of marine line and stainless link with a screw closure.

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy

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3 weeks 3 days ago - 3 weeks 3 days ago #30445 by HangTen
Does anyone know how much reinforcement is done on the carry handles(bow, stern, either side of the cockpit) as compared to the dedicated leash attachment point?
I could've sworn I read somewhere not to leash to the handles because they were not built for that purpose, but can't remember which surfski brand or if things have changed since then. Given how light skis are it seems possible that not much reinforcement would be needed solely for the purposes of carrying.

Might be worth shooting an email over to the manufacturer of the ski you use to confirm how reinforced it is or if you run a deck line, make sure that the redundancies require failure of all the points as Newbflat mentioned in his design(for the example of illustrating the distinction, you could have a two point system that is truly redundant, which would require both points to fail for the system to fail which reduces the risk, whereas if you have the leash running on a line between two anchor points, it could be that you now have a system where if either end of the anchor points fail, the whole system fails actually increasing the risk, even further if one point has less reinforcement). Although I suppose it could be argued that we don't actually know how much reinforcement any dedicated footwell leash attachment points have been given from one brand to another.

Related, I got mixed information about the new deck attachment point on the v10g2. I had read marketing and one rep had told me that it was a leash attachment point(I figured they had incorporated design suggestions from people on forums/elsewhere that said a stern leash attachment point is better/safer since it gets the ski pointed downwind when you fall off, as opposed to the usual swinging of the ski perpendicular to downwind with your body as an anchor which would have much more comparative strain on the leash/your body; this makes sense to me, although it was also suggested to me that having the ski pulled perpendicular was better for the remount), but another rep later said it was designed for the purposes of bungeeing a broken rudder or anchoring a GoPro, which also makes sense, but that would not require the same reinforcement. For that reason I have not used it. The visible hardware/grommet is the same for the dedicated leash point, the stern "attachment" point, as well as the deck bungees, but the differentiator would be the reinforcement underneath the deck if there is a difference between the various points.

I feel like reinforced stern/bow handles suitable for leashing to should be standard on all skis for the purposes of leashing as well as towing skis. However, I've also read that the top deck construction outside of the reinforced construction of the cockpit is less suited for this, so not sure if that is the consideration(weight aside, given the overarching fixation on dropping every lb).

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3 weeks 3 days ago #30446 by owenfromwales
Hi,

So here is my latest leash, utilising the running line mentioned earlier. It`s early stages, so I will probably have to adjust some lengths of line once I`ve tried jumping off and on in the ocean. I went for two clips on the deck line with a knot just before the rear handle. The idea being that as long at least one anchor point stays intact, I should still be leashed to the boat (or the entire rear decking if that gets ripped off!).

Anyway, pictures are the way to go, so here you are. Don`t be afraid to let me know what you think!!




189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy
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The following user(s) said Thank You: Watto

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3 weeks 3 days ago #30449 by LaPerouseBay
You are going to love that slider Owen. I did that for years with a coil leash behind me, rather than your rope leash. I finally moved on because the coil leashes would break. Also, they don't give much distance from the boat when swimming. I like to get about six feet away from my boat if a wave is coming.

White water will do crazy things to you and the boat as you tumble around. I got bonked behind the ear by the tail of my ski last winter and it hurt for weeks. I'm lucky it didn't knock me out. The wave was not very big...

So, now I use a leash behind me that has some stretch to it and is connected to me and the tail of the boat. No slider. I used a surfboard type leash for awhile, but it was noisy, slapping on the rear deck.

The leash I use now is soft, has just enough stretch to keep it from dragging in the water and has a quick release on the belt. I love it. It should be plenty strong too. I stitched on a section of yellow bungee to drag my wing behind me If i need to swim.

It's in this thread.

www.surfski.info/forum/17-equipment/1894...for-a-ski.html#28795

downwind dilettante
The following user(s) said Thank You: Watto

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3 weeks 3 days ago #30450 by HangTen
Owen,
A couple suggestions feel free to take or leave any:
What's the purpose of the knot by the handle? Seems like you could take that out without much effect to your setup since the quick release shackle can't pass through the deck grommets.

If you're going to have the carabiner/quick release on the boat end of the deck, maybe pad the area directly under it otherwise you might find it clanging and scratching up your deck a bit.

That particular type of quick release shackle has some criticism in sailing because it doesn't realise or can jam up if you try to pull the pin under load.

Reach out to Stellar and see what they say about the reinforcement on the deck bungee points and stern handle; but at least on the SEI you have the side handles so while it might not look as clean as this version, you could also take your system one step further and extend the line down the side of the cockpit, loop through the side handles, and terminate on the dedicated leash attachment point. I think it would still be enough out of the way for leg drive, but let us know.

Splicing single braid is pretty easy if you want to give it a shot to put a neat eye splice on either end of the rope.

Definitely replace the carabiner/dog leash hardwares with your choice of multi-locking carabiners.

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3 weeks 3 days ago - 3 weeks 3 days ago #30451 by HangTen
Hey LaPerouse,
Could you expand a bit more on the purpose of dragging your wing if you have to swim for it?

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3 weeks 3 days ago #30453 by Newbflat

JonathanC wrote: Hey Newbflat, could you please go into a little more detail about the dyneema stuffed into the silicon tube. Do you have to stuff it back in if you fall out of the boat? What size dyneema and what size tube?



I think it’s 7/64, 2.5mm Dyneema. It might be 1/8th, 3mm though. The 2.5mm braking strength is 1600lbs so it doesn’t really matter strength wise.

All the Line is inside the tubing and stays there. Putting it together is simple. Take a 12 foot/ 4 meter pice of Dyneema and tie a figure 8 knot in one end with about a 4-5 inch/ 10-13 cm loop. Cut a pice of tubing the to the needed length, about 3 feet/1 meter for a running leash behind the cockpit. If you are replacing a leash to be used in the cockpit then a longer leash is needed so it’s not tight when you are beside the ski in the water. Feed the bitter end of the line threw the tubing. To help with this I use an old guitar string to fish the Line with a tiny bit of the tip formed into a hook. Slid the tubing up and bury the figure 8 knot in the tubing about half an inch /1cm. Seize the end of the tubing with waxed whipping Line so the figure 8 knot can’t pull out.

Attach the loop to something very sturdy. Stretch the tubing as far as it will go, or dare, and mark the Line where the tubing ends. Now tie a figure 8 knot at the mark just like the other end and cut off the excess line. Stretch the tubing again and burry the figure 8 knot in the tubing again and gently let off the tension. Seize the end like the other end and ..... you have a leash.

Thoughts...
Loops in the end should be large-ish, big enough to pass a carabiner and make it easer to attach to whatever.

Surgical tubing works great!... for about a month. It stretches like crazy and you can get 5-1 stretch from latex tubing, but it’s a wast of time. Silicone tubing is hard to find. I had to order it off eBay and it’s not cheep but it will last a very long time even in the sun. It only stretches about 3 or 4 to 1 at most so adjust accordingly. I use 1/2 inch OD -3/8 ID (13mm OD- 9.5mm ID) tubing and it’s just right with lots of room inside.

This is the current set up on the Stellar SR. 3foot/1 meter leash (stretches to 9+feet/3 metes) prusiked to a running line attached at the stern handle.
The leash dose not move unless you grab it and move it. I can move it to the stern and swim with the ski or flip sides if remounting would be easer on that side. Being on a loose runner works as well but the leash will drag in the water at times.

As for if the handles are meant for this... I don’t see why not. There is a nut glassed in the hull and the load is more on the two bungee attachments behind the cockpit in a boat in the air situation. There is a lot of increasing resistance in the leash stretch so shock loads should be at a minimum. There is a knot in the running line just ahead of the stern handle so the leash can’t run off the end even if it becomes untied or the handle brakes.

I like to use my leash in the cockpit as well at times. I bring it if I’m borrowing a ski or demoing. I like it better than a coiled leash there as well but I have friends with leashes I made for them and they don’t like it in the cockpit so, to each there own. B1F70D33-A0F3-4141-A6AD-25170E1E5CAB.jpeg[/attachment[attachment=1903]B1F70D33-A0F3-4141-A6AD-25170E1E5CAB.jpeg[/attachment

Current: Stellar s18s excel
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Epic V10 Double Performance

Had:
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)
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The following user(s) said Thank You: JonathanC

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3 weeks 3 days ago #30454 by Newbflat
Owenfromwales...

Hmm... that’s an interesting set up. I fittled with something like that before but switched to a single line. I like the self tending leash aspect to the twin lines but didn’t like dragging metal back and forth on the ski. Yours has me thinking again about how to do that and not use any metal.

I have a cunning plan.

Current: Stellar s18s excel
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Epic V10 Double Performance

Had:
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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3 weeks 2 days ago #30457 by LaPerouseBay

HangTen wrote: Hey LaPerouse,
Could you expand a bit more on the purpose of dragging your wing if you have to swim for it?


If the leash breaks and I need to swim after my boat or to shore, it's easier to jam a wing blade through the bungee loop and drag it behind me. I can swim with both hands, no need to hold on to a paddle.

downwind dilettante

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3 weeks 2 days ago #30458 by HangTen
Laperouse,
Thanks for the response and explanation.

Have you tested swimming with a paddle in it? I'm curious to what extent the paddle would slow you down, since I know people cite a paddle leashed to the boat acts as a drift anchor although I've never tried it.

I guess nothing lost in having it and not using it or using it if you're very close to shore, but not sure to what extent dragging a paddle might hinder you if you have a long swim.

Also, I'm a terrible swimmer so it's a foregone conclusion that if I am detached from the boat there is no way I am catching it, but curious if anyone would be able to swim after their boat if the paddle wasn't attached to the boat.

Fastest recorded human swim speed is 20.26 for the 50m which comes out to 5.52mph by Florent Manaudou of France; one might argue that is the avg speed not the "top" speed, but at 50m it's an all out sprint as well as that particular record time including the jump start off the platform as well as a push off wall turn. And before anyone asks, yes, that is faster than any of Michael Phelps' recorded speeds.

I imagine a windblown ski is going to escape even the fastest human swimmers from a cold start much less one dragging a paddle.

Thoughts? Anyone have any luck catching their ski?

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3 weeks 2 days ago - 3 weeks 2 days ago #30459 by HangTen
Newbflat,
I don't know enough about the construction of the different surfskis, but I would hope that there is load spreading reinforcement under the deck(perhaps a metal plate, and not just a glassed nut)? Given that people have had their footboard ripped out, I would think a glassed nut wouldn't provide much resistance against a force concentrated on that small a surface area. I feel like the rear deck bungee points could be designed for less force than the handles.

Watto,
Do you think you can see if the guy who put up the ski for sale has any photos of the boat after the leash attachment point tore out? Curious what kind of reinforcement is on the other side of the deck and don't think I'm able to really picture the 90 degree splitting of the boat; the boat split laterally like top deck separated from bottom, or split in half perpendicular to the bow/stern line, or split on the "top deck" of the cockpit on the bow/stern line as well as perpendicular creating an x where it tore out?

Thanks in advance guys!

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3 weeks 2 days ago - 3 weeks 2 days ago #30461 by owenfromwales
Check out the video just published on the surfski.info page on FB.
www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=...10155958534949187%2F

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy

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3 weeks 2 days ago #30463 by HangTen
Owen,
I take it you're referring to the "Amazing rescue story from the Doctor race!" video?

Guy had incredible luck...what're the chances someone just happened to be on the lookout from the conning tower of a submarine.

I'm curious about the picture of the guy paddling with his ski broken in half; If that happens I would feel the ski would sink fairly rapidly, no? Fiberglass, kevlar, and CF are all denser than water. Fenn Elite S so it's not like there are bulkhead hatches for buoyancy bags in there. Depending on the coring it might have some internal bouyancy if it were foam and not Nomex, but even the foam might become waterlogged.
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