Which ocean ski for my weight, height & skill?

I have been inspired to make the transition from kayak paddling to surf ski by a 72 year old paddler who has been paddling competitively since he was 19 and has never stopped and does not show any sign that this is likely to happen anytime soon! once started, I could not help but be addicted to it to the point where my wife was asking if I was training for the Olympics! these days I paddle a lot less, winter, 2 babies under 2, new house demanding job but my passion for the sport is still growing. I read this forum avidly looking for research materials, ideas, boat reviews, help other people too when they ask for advice. I'm paddle mostly for fitness these days but enjoy the challenge of offshore paddling, downwind and big swell! Better still I had the priviledge of paddling with 2 resting humpback whales for 30 minutes as close as 30 meters, not that I measured it but I could feel their breathing in my stomach each time they would expel a spray of air and water through their blowhole. I still have in my mind the sight of these gentle giants playing next to me, this enormous tail gliding vertically back down to the ocean floor. The reason for raising this particular topic is that I am beginning to question whether I am paddling the right ski for my height 5ft10, weight(74kg) and skill (medium paddler midpack). My progression if I may call it that in terms of boat has been as follows : OzFlyte Seamaster --> Honcho Guevara ---> Fenn Mako6 ---> Epic V10 ---> Think Uno Max ---> Vajda Orca. thinking back, I belive that the most challenging ski offshore in big conditions has to be the Mak06 followed closely by the Uno Max. whilst the Vajda is a great ski, stable as a yatch and can take me downwind quite happily at 18km/hr, it has its limitations and seems to hit a speed barrier that I have not been able to cross despite me attempting to improve my paddling technique. The Honcho was a 5m80 stable ski and was heaps of fun as I recall, this is where I cut my teeth in ocean paddling and managed to paddle through a large pod of dolphin in a feeding frenzy... the Uno Max whilst a fast ski inshore particularly with the venturi closed, was offshore like a bull that was pricked in the nuts! .
The question now is which ski should I try next in the search for more fun, not necessarily speed, although having said that, no one can argue that accelerating past the 20km/hr mark downwind is probaly something I would want to experience in the not too distant future... nut I would prefer to stay on my ski as I still remember the pain of sea sickness in 3+m swell trying to get back on my M6. I was blue and speachless for 3 hours lying in a sofa on my return home. I read and heard good review of the Carbonology Atom. I await in anticipation your forum's expert advice. Take care and be wise & aware on the water! Jean

Maybe a Stellar SEL? From what I hear they almost have the stability of an intermediate ski yet the speed of an elite ski. I'm not far off getting one for myself, just got to justify to myself the spending of more money on another boat.

Out of the boats I know, I'd recommend the Stellar SES.

I've posted previously about my SES Stellar Excel purchased this year, ski No 4 following years of kayaks, Avon Descents and white water paddling here in Perth WA. You can follow these posts up on this site.

I'm 6ft / 181cm and 85 kilo 32" /84 cm waist and chose the SES for its speed/stability and brilliant fit for me. Agree with RAB's reasons for going with his latest purchase the V12 based significantly but not entirely on fit in the boat. Your dimensions JeandeFlorette while slimmer still match the SES's slim fit. Have paddled the SE's many times though not tried the SEL which was not available when I was in my boat testing phase (does it ever really stop?), however though the word is that the SE a more stable boat, did not fid it at all that way because I floated around in it, vis-a-vis boat fit over a more stable platform.

As far as speed goes, I'm a middling paddler however (a) it really does have get up and go due to light weight (my Excel 10.9kgs), fantastic slim lines and ability to get up and run in all sorts of water (b) confidence inspiring stability (it's not an XT, however I feel twice as stable in the SES compared to a V10 Ultra in the same conditions (c) fn fantastic to remount in whatever slop you care for.

Flatwater / downwind / cross-chop speed analysis I'll let go here as plenty of this here and other sites, however will attest to what for me is a really fast and comfortable boat that is accessible and fun to paddle in a wide range of conditions. Having said that while I've been out in some blowy stuff to Little Island off the coast, surfed waves off south Cott reef here etc, have not yet had any real downwind runs in big sea breeze conditions to attest to it's capacity as a good downwind boat. But I love its comfort, build, easy adjustment of leg length (five people have used it from novices to experts 5ft 5inches to 6ft four and no untying of knots and all one or two minute adjustments !!) plus its sexy lines.

I'll be out on the water later today however it won' be humpback whales leaping out next to me that I'll be looking for! Probably worth a good thread - Biteys! Off topic but we are all on the edge in some way out on the water be it potential drowning, surf/white-water injury, exposure to elements and of course hot topic here in Western Australia recently - shark attacks following a spate of recent deaths and surf ski incidents. Personally I've either swum, dived, paddled or all three at, in, under or over precise spots where six of these fatalities and/or attacks have taken place over the years from Green Head, Rotto, Mullaloo, Cott to Bunkers Bay. Anyone shark-shielding?

thanks Guys. I was hoping someone would give me some feedback on the Carbonology skis for small stature like me, Anyone?

here's another wild idea for someone who is not a purist or competing paddler but loves the greater ocean paddle. Has anyone paddled a Gibbons GR3?! How does that compare to an ocean ski? is it more fun? I know it will handle the surf, but what about rough waters, big downwind, cross chop etc. I seem to see quite a few paddlers at the ocean series doing quite well against ocean ski paddlers? do they stack up better in the rough than an ocean ski?

The question now is which ski should I try next in the search for more fun, not necessarily speed,

Up until the beginning of this year my favoured racing boat was the Fenn Mako Elite. I've also paddled the Epic V10 quite a bit and the V12. I've also spent quite a bit of time on other elite boats like the Allwave and the Custom Kayaks Bullet.

A couple of months ago I got onto Fenn Swordfish and I've also spent a lot of time since the on a Kayak Centre Genius Blu.

In my opinion the answer to your question re "more fun, not necessarily speed" is definitely to get onto one of these intermediate boats. I'm not sure what the Stellar equivalent is but the Custom Kayaks Focus is another intermediate ski worth trying out judging by the reports coming from Durban.

You asked specifically about the Carbonology boats as well - I've spent time on the Atom (one of the fastest boats I've ever paddled, but beyond my ability in choppy water) and the Vault. The Vault is the intermediate boat in their range - I found it fast but quite tippy. This is somewhat borne out by the experiences of a friend who owns one, paddling against me in flat races (where he would pull away from me quite easily in small bumps when I was on the SF) and in proper downwind conditions (where he found his feeling of tippiness got in the way of his stroke and I beat him by miles).

The Carbonology Zest is the "beginner" boat in the range. I found it quite tippy - more tippy than the Swordfish, but again quite fast, so you should give it a go too if there's a demo available. I put a couple of beginners on the Zest and they confirmed its tippiness compared to the SF.

Comparing the Genius Blu and the SF, we had a cracking downwind run last weekend when I paddled the Blu while my buddy Dale was on his Swordfish. We found in the specific conditions (25kt, 3ft clean waves) that several times I was able to bounce the next wave while he found himself wallowing, unable to "punch through". In other conditions, particularly very rough cross-chop downwind, he was much more competitive. In flat conditions I think the Blu is slightly faster than the SF. Whatever, both boats are relatively stable compared to the elite level boats and both of us find them much more fun to paddle in truly hectic conditions. (An example of which is the 800m paddle out at the beginning of our Millers Run where you're going diagonally into breaking waves and 30kt southeaster! I used to feel quite apprehensive about going out in really strong sidewinds in my Elite; in the SF or Blu, I'm so confident I can crack out at full pace.)

In summary, I can strongly recommend paddling in intermediate boats for fun... As for speed - in rough water you'll find that you're paddling just as fast because your stroke is less impaired than when you're leaking energy into staying upright.

Hi Rob, many thanks for your comprehensive run down of various intermediate skis. You have nailed the subject of this blog. The key word here is "fun" and more importantly the ability to maintain your paddling rythmn in cross chop/swell/wind where your primary and secondary stability will be tested to its limit. I do recall with a lot of nostalgia that the Honcho Guevara (what happened to them?!) was the ski I had the most fun in and could paddle in any condition unhindered! Is it possible that for some scientific reason for my height, weight and skill, I have hit a sweet spot in terms of boat length, seat shape and position on the boat?! i do recall also the very technical article about boat length and weight.
what I also liked with your feedback Rob, is your impartiality when it comes to boat brand, I get very suspicious when people recommend the boat that they have just bought as it is the best in the world... I;m guilty of that too! I would have vouched a year ago that the Vajda is the best ski in the world but I have my doubts today. In the quest to make skis fast and light, 2 manufactureres that I will not name have created a very brittle ski that flexes in big conditions in the open ocean and worst still creates soft spots in the hull where you rest it on your shoulders or hips whilst carrying it back to your car. I have paid close to $3000 for those 2 skis and they have had the same problem. Delamination, hull too thin... I also question some of the manufacturing process in china! If someone was to tell me, "hey, you can race your ski for a couple of season and get a new one after that " at the time of purchase, I would have had not problem accepting the fact that I purchased a disposable item. However, if manufacturers are serious about expanding the sport, they should have a good look at themselves and go back to thd drawing board. Finally, I would also question the "independent" reviews of some of the skis in your web site... as they very obviously come from within the circle of the manufacturers. Is there a way that you can vet these so called articles before they get published in the name of maintaining some sort of editorial check? Apologies for the mixed bag of issues I have brought up all in one post but I did this because I love this web site so much that I would love it more if we could somehow keep its integrity intact. The SF is definitely a ski i have on my bucket list to try,I just hope that Keith has improved the seat as the M6 used to give me neck, back pain and a numb left feet at the end of a long paddle. Cheers, JDF

ps. I hope to meet you in Mauritius one day for the Classic, this is my homeland and Lemorne is where I sepnd a good part of my childhood! and Phoenix is my fav beer!

I get very suspicious when people recommend the boat that they have just bought as it is the best in the world.

Yeah watch out JF I’m a secret agent for Stellar employed by Wes to infiltrate threads worldwide and insinuate these boats into your sub-consciouses.

In my garage is a PRS, a Finn Molokai, a Honcho Rookie and an SES. I’ve paddled Epics, Fenns, one Vadja and owned and paddled many kayaks. Depends where your fun is JF. PRS is a blast in white water and a damn good boat on the flat (though mine an earlier model and very heavy). Yes it’s fun but not in the surf unless you like talking water or having swells just roll under you when trying to get on. Won’t say much about the Finn – up for sale shortly – but though quick is enormously flighty and not at all fun, for me fight fight fight all the time. The Rookie I am attached to after a couple of years but it’s heavy, surpisingly twitchy for its width and ok fun in a range of situations. Mates I paddle with invariably prefer the narrower SES to the Rookie (one ingrate called my rookie a pig the other day , but it’s not).

But my other boat with the three capital letters whose name I dare not utter again is, as mentioned in my first post, really fun. It depends where you get your jollies JF. I love getting out there on it, it inspires me to paddle.

My fun is edgy then if yours is not falling in from time to time, so stick your suspicion up your jumper.

As far as vetting comments because they may come from within "the circle of the manufacturers" whatever that may be, that is utter BS. As in life - and any internert activity - be discriminating and discerning - be a critical reader. But also be open-minded. Your fun is not nor should be my fun, it just depends.

I own two Epics and suggested a Stellar.
Is that independent enough?

I suggested it because when I sat in one after not paddling for about 12 weeks, the words that immediately come to mind was that is the most chuckable boat I ever sat in.
(as in you could body english the thing wherever you wanted it to go and it never felt twitchy)

It was on my shortlist for new boats with the only thing that I didn't like was the lack of forward volume for a heavier type.

For somebody your size, I rekon it would be great boat for any conditions with a surprising amount of stability, especially considering it's narrow width.
It just doesn't sit in the water like it's width suggests.
Only way to know is to try one though.


I think that most people are capable of reading the truth into the reviews on this site.
There is really only one review that I would take exception to, and that one was painfully obvious, so no harm done.
If anything it went against the perpetrators.

Most reviews I have read here, rang true as soon as I sat in the boats in question allowing for differences for differing paddlers.

They often point out things that I had not considered when merely window shopping and made me aware of some things to focus on when I did eventually get in them.

All in all, the reviews on this site are miles above some of the advertorial on other sites.




Oh, and I recommend you get a V12, well if you are me anyways......






As for hulls being to thin?
Maybe, but all of the boats around here that have suffered from delamination have been replaced by the manufacturers.

Any manufacturer that doesn't back up in this way, won't last past the first sale.

Bashing a boat to death is a lot different from the boat simply developing soft spots.
I'm prepared to cop it for a beat up boat, hell I already have with my V10, but boats developing soft spots, better be some back up there or I'll whinge like crazy.

And from experience, all it takes is a couple of bad outcomes and the whole community will shy away from the seller.

Again on Carbonology, I agree with Robins assessment of the Atom. While I would love one, I had to be honest with myself when faced with the question of whether I could do it justice downwind.

I was going to try to stretch the budget to own two ski's one for river racing and the other for downwind but circumstances meant I can only afford one composite ski, so I chose the Flash as a compromise between the Vault (Intermediate) and Atom.

When shopping for a replacement for the V10L I paddled the SES and it was a close run thing between the two ski's, I would also suggest the SES or Vault. If you prefer a full length ski the Flash may be worth you checking out.

It was interesting to here Rob as someone coming from a Mako6 saying the Vault felt tippy, I remember battling the stay in a Carbon Mako 6 a few years ago I guess we all find the way a ski reacts to the water different, I would suggest that the Vault is a sub-elite? ski rather than a true intermediate compared with the Swordfish and Think Evo II. From what other paddlers tell me maybe the Zest fits the intermediate bill better?

Unfortunately we don't have the latest Custom Kayaks ski's in my state so I cant comment on them.

One question you obviously want to answer is build quality, as someone who has paddled a Carbonology ski for 16 months I was really happy with the quality of the build and it's durability.

The Stellar paddlers I know have also been happy with their skis over time.

Watto wrote:

Won’t say much about the Finn – up for sale shortly – but though quick is enormously flighty and not at all fun, for me fight fight fight all the time.

Off topic, please forgive me

Watto, have you paddled the Finn Molokai Mk II, a mate of mine has the Mk I and was blown away at the difference between the two ski's, same speed, much much more stability (they lowered the seat in the MkII) and a lot more robust.

I train with some fairly good paddlers and can stay with them in their spec ski's in the Mk II, it is a good ski for the weight.

Personally I think they should have just scrapped the Molokai name and relaunched the ski, so many people just disregard the Molokai because of the reputation of the original ski.

I have no affiliation or commercial link to Finn Kayaks

Yeah seen them about mate and agree boats do evolve and often improve their manners. I'll take your word for it, I daren't test another boat for awhile. There's even the Mk 3 now. Bloody hell, Alwyn Duke the manufacturer - I remember when he was a young kid/teenager paddling years and years ago, and now I've got one of his boats (sorry Alwyn no offence , old man reminiscing).

Which boat for ski and height - well skewing this topic, three years ago Classic Paddle from Narrows Bridge to Freo 12ks I paddled in my then new Rookie absolutely belting easterly and bad slop Perth water when this grey haired wizzened old dude (I'm 60, he must have been at least a 100) slides past handling the stern quarter 3 footers in a skinny-arsed Finn Molokai like he was born to it. Yeah I could paddle fast in a boat like that thinks John (me). Truth is NOT. Horses for courses. Old bastard cost me some later when I bought one. Another late-life lesson about exaggerating own ability, but you get that.