Lightweight vs. skinnier

More
6 years 4 months ago #25379 by Ericspin
i put in the work on technique and am trying to progress with my mechanics on every paddle. But the fun part of growing on the ski is scheming the next boat. After several years of waffling back and forth between OC1 and ski I think it's safe to say I'm committed to the skip only at this point.

I'm 6'2 and 190 and currently paddling a V10Sport Ultra. Recently have owned and paddled EVO II in Elite and V10 in Performance as well. As I think about the next move which will be something to race with and have as a faster boat than the current Sport. I paddle in west central FL where we see predominantly choppy conditions, a fair amount of side chop and multi directional seas as well as some flattish conditions. This time of year we get downwind opportunities with fronts moving through.

So, the boats on my radar are-

V10Sport in GT
EVO II in Ultimate
V10 in Ultra or GT

Feel like the two intermediate boats in lighter weight would give me the stability I seek with lighter weight for quicker acceleration onto bumps and more overall speed. While the V10 may not be a skinny ski to some, it is to me. Compared to my Sport.

Curious what some of you out there in surfski-land might think about this given the info I have shared.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25380 by wesley
Replied by wesley on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
The new Stellar SEL 2g could be an option. It is noticeably faster than the boats on you mentioned, however less stable so you would have more of a learning curve than the intermediate boats you are thinking about. The SEL 2G is an High Performance Ski in a different category than the intermediate skis you mentioned. You can debate what category the V10 falls in which is less important. However, if you keep your V10sport Ultra and opt for the SEL you will have a great combination of boats for every condition. Most guys I paddled with, that have the V10sport Ultra and/or V10 ultra don't see the benefit of having both since these are very similar in performance in comparable layups.

So regardless of what brand you get, you would be better served with an HPS(high performance ski and an intermediate ski) in the lightest layup you are willing to pay for if having 2 skis is option. If not than go with one of the skis you mentioned since the SEL 2G could too much for your skill level at this point in time. Stellar SR 2G is also comparable to the EVO II, and the Sport in speed and stability. I recently time trial again the Evo II Ultimate, SR 2G Excel, and SEI Excel back to back, so when I finally complete my comparison chart in a few weeks I will have even more info.

Just my thoughts as the Stellar Performance Director and of SurfskiRacing.com.

Wesley Echols
SurfskiRacing.com
#1 in Surfski Reviews.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25381 by Davelis
Replied by Davelis on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Although both are made in China the Think has better quality and it's trustworthy on the open sea while the GT version of Epics isn't

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago - 6 years 4 months ago #25382 by Fath2o
Replied by Fath2o on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
My opinion and feeling is your greatest performance and skill gains will be by improving your training and technique.
You have a fine surfski and you will have a hard time improving your speed in the ocean on a different ski. You may very likely end up being slower in a "faster" boat.
That being said, if you don't have an issue with spending the dough on a new boat, go for it. New skis are always exciting!

Davelis, curious what your experience/knowledge is of the GT layup to claim it is unseaworthy? :unsure:
Last edit: 6 years 4 months ago by Fath2o.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25383 by red_pepper
Replied by red_pepper on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Hi Eric! My recommendation might go against the grain a bit, but I would recommend trying an SEL G2 in Advantage layup. I think you would find the stability of the boat in the heavier layup to be comparable to your stability in the light intermediate boats, but you'd have a faster cruise/top speed with the superior hydrodynamic properties of the hull. Acceleration might be slightly slower, but maybe not since good stability with some extra weight typically outperforms marginal stability with lighter weight. You should also try one in the light Excel layup as well; even in the lighter weight I found the stability to be pretty darn good for a light, 17" wide ski. It's really an excellent boat, and the build quality is superb.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25384 by Ericspin
Replied by Ericspin on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
I certainly may need to try the SEL 2G. I have a friend who has the 1G that raves about it and another friend who recently borrowed it for a race and was very complimentary of the speed gain over his intermediate boats. I believe the 2G is less stable than the 1G, correct? I don't believe anyone in my west central FL area has a 2G to test paddle.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25385 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Think has better quality! Clearly you don`t repair them for a living.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25386 by red_pepper
Replied by red_pepper on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
I wasn't making a specific comparison, just noting that Stellar has excellent build quality, so if you're going that route you'll need to be specific as to what's "better". I've had multiple Epic, Think, Huki, and Stellar boats; I liked them all, but I did find some things that I liked better in some than in others. As for quality of Think boats, of the three I owned I had two that leaked and one had decals that smeared from sunscreen. On the plus side, Daryl Remmler was always very responsive and I'm sure those issues have long since been resolved. I never had an issue with the strength of the hulls (but then again, I'm not charging through breaking surf), and I particularly liked the way my Evo 1 paddled, but the cockpits never fit me well, so I moved on. I know quite a bit about how Stellar boats are built, from both design and construction standpoints, and as a mechanical engineer with some composite experience I've been very impressed. I know someone who cut into another major brand of ski (not mentioned here) to mod the cockpit area and found a significant amount of delamination between the composite layers of this particular ski. It's unlikely you'll find that in a Stellar ski. I can't comment as much on the other brands listed because I'm not as intimately familiar with their processes.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25387 by Fath2o
Replied by Fath2o on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Ranga do you agree with Davelis that the GT layup is not seaworthy? Is it too light or defective?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25388 by zachhandler

Davelis wrote: Although both are made in China the Think has better quality and it's trustworthy on the open sea while the GT version of Epics isn't


Davelis - what is your experience with the Epic GT and with Think in regards to seaworthiness? I have only heard good things about the GT. Hard to know what to make of your assertion without specific details.

On a side note, it seems that with any brand of ski you can find someone who has a horror story, so it is important to look at the overall range of user experiences with each make.

Zach

Current Skis: Kai Wa’a Vega, Nelo 550L g2, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X

Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25389 by zachhandler
Also I thought that the pre-preg epic GT were being made in the Philippines. Maybe that has changed to China?

Anyway, as to the OP question about lighter vs skinnier, i would generally advise against going skinnier if your focus is downwind and confused seas paddling as the skinnier boat often ends up being slower and less fun because of balance. downwind the fat boats still fly and they are a blast. On the other hand if you paddle more flat water you are more likely to get benefit from a skinnier hull.

Current Skis: Kai Wa’a Vega, Nelo 550L g2, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X

Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fath2o

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25390 by Ericspin
Replied by Ericspin on topic BLightweight vs. skinnier
Zach ,thanks for you response. What you mention is one of the things that makes me think about the V10. While it may not be a _skinny _ ski it may be different enough compared to the Sport.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25391 by red_pepper
Replied by red_pepper on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier

Ericspin wrote: I certainly may need to try the SEL 2G. I have a friend who has the 1G that raves about it and another friend who recently borrowed it for a race and was very complimentary of the speed gain over his intermediate boats. I believe the 2G is less stable than the 1G, correct? I don't believe anyone in my west central FL area has a 2G to test paddle.


I currently race a 1G SEL Advantage, and I have some experience with a 2G SEL Excel. I found the 2G SEL felt like it had a little less primary stability, but actually a bit more secondary stability (already a strong suite on the 1G). The fit of the cockpit is really excellent as well, which helps a lot. I've long loved the cockpit fit of the Epic boats - all of them have fit me well, but with the 2G SEL and SR Stellar has created a cockpit that is among the best I've tried (at least for my physique - I'm 6', 195, and an avid cyclist). Naturally, you're mileage may vary.

The guy who bought the 2G SEL that I paddled also had an Epic V10 Sport Performance he wanted to transition from. He had tried my SEI in Excel and my 1G SEL in Advantage, and had no problem with them, but he did find the jump to the 2G SEL in Excel to be a bit of a stretch. Hence the reason I think you'd have no issue going from a light intermediate ski to a heavier narrower ski, but you might have a bit of a learning curve with a very light narrow ski.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25392 by Love2ski
Replied by Love2ski on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
I have paddled a gen2 v10 sport ultra and loved it. However the next step up for me was the fenn swordfish s.
It is the same length but with more rocker it is very loose compared to the epic. At 45cm wide it is narrower and slices through chop.
I am having to relearn new twitches but it is quicker.
Also the price difference is becoming ridiculous. My v10 cost $4800 Aus whilst my fenn cost a lot less than $3500 Aus. The epic weighs 12.5 kg and the fenn 12.1 kg.
I also had a v10 ultra but I could never get comfortable and had trouble getting it up to speed in the bump.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25393 by Fath2o
Replied by Fath2o on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Love2ski,
I am very interested in your comparison of the V10-S vs Swordfish, particularly, how each handles downwind. Does one tend to nose dive more than the other and how nimble are they when riding waves. Does one track more than the other. When you say the Swordfish is "loose", I take that to mean it is more forgiving in rough conditions and the sport tends to track more? Do you think it is due to the additional rocker?
Thanks, Kirk

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25396 by Love2ski
Replied by Love2ski on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Hi,

I am pretty early in my swordfish journey however I have paddled it for more than 50 km in some pretty rough stuff.

In terms of comparison, the sport and the swordfish are quite different boats.
The sport is much flatter with the long vertical bow. As a result it tracks in a very predictable way but can be hard to turn. When doing big offshore downwinds I needed a surf rudder or it could be hard to turn onto waves. However this tracabilty makes it very stable and forgiving. Also once on a wave it runs for a long time.
The swordfish has a smaller but longer nose. This helps it cut through chop more. In fact the instances of the bow slapping when going over a wave have disappeared when they were the norm with the sport. I have not found the swordfish to nose dive as yet. The swordfish is considerably easier to throw around and position in the swells. This will become more rewarding as I get used to the boat as in the initial stages the boat feels much more twitchy than the sport and the tail gets thrown around. I have found when going downwind that the swordfish seems to glide more and requires less effort to catch and stay on the swells. I have done some 1 km splits where the average speed surprised me given I was basically cruising.
I have had some very uncomfortable and slow paddles on the swordfish with plenty of swims. However I feel that I will transition from the sport once my body gets used to the different twitches the swordfish produces. This is different from the v10 which I could never master.
I still love the sport however the swordfish is very much a rough water boat which I think I can handle.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fath2o

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25397 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
You should NOT be falling off your ski. Golden rule "Stability before ability". Not sure about you but my balance is doing a runner on me. Your body is not the problem it is your ability and balance and that is a long road to go down if you are falling off.
The Swordfish is a very different ski to the Sport, not because it of the rocker as they are similar, the Swordfish is narrower (skinnier) hence more unstable, very similar to the V10 hence one of the issues you have with the V10.
I prefer to stay on top of the water and use the most stable ski I can get away with to be competitive and race my mates on their narrower longer skis. Yes I give away some speed but I have fun instead of battling and wobbling.

As for an earlier question to the seaworthiness of the GT`s. Its like asking if the new car you bought can drive on the road! It has to be fit for its purpose or Epic would be held liable, but you have to be realistic on what a 9kg ski can do. The same applies to high performance cars you have to look after them, even though you have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars you cannot do everything a cheaper lets say rental car can do.
It is sold as an open ocean surf ski and hence it can be used in the open ocean, and has been used for this purpose in many ski races thus far.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fath2o

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25400 by Ericspin
Replied by Ericspin on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Love2ski, this is a great description of the Sport's handling characteristics. I agree that the boat tracks straight and, as you mentioned, sometimes too straight. We are in our downwind season and I have noticed on some of the wave riding that as I have tried to work left or right it is sometime difficult to make her turn even with the surf rudder. I hope to try a friends EVO II this week to see how it compares. It has a similar shaped nose to the Swordfish. Will be curious to see how it reacts.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fath2o

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago - 6 years 4 months ago #25402 by rhainan
Replied by rhainan on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier

Davelis wrote: Although both are made in China the Think has better quality and it's trustworthy on the open sea while the GT version of Epics isn't


Please do detail the problems you encountered with your GT. I have been paddling one for six months now and have not noticed anything out of the ordinary. I have encountered at least seven other GT paddlers over the last months of the season and nobody mentioned any problems.

Jasper Mocke, Hank McGregor and Clint Robinson are doing pretty well with the GT. Hank had an accident in a race in which his V14GT was rammed by another boat. I don't think that the accident had anything to do with the design or materials. After viewing the damage, I'm confident a Think, Stellar or Fenn would have foundered as well.

Trolling is in poor taste.

Western Pennsylvania Epic Kayak Dealer
Last edit: 6 years 4 months ago by rhainan.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
6 years 4 months ago #25403 by Scode
Replied by Scode on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
I paddled a V10GT a couple of days ago - a friend has just bought one- and have to say its a great looking boat. Feels rock solid, very light and well finished. Bloody expensive though.

Also pretty sure Epic have closed their Phillipines operation and moved all production to China.

My take on the handling of the Swordfish S v V10s is pretty much what everyone has been saying. I find the Swordfish to be much more manoeuvrable downwind whereas the Epic V10s tends to track. I find the V10 even worse than the V10s for tracking, probably due to the extra 40cm of length of the V10.

This is just my take for what its worth but I think the whole Fenn range surfs better and is more manoeuvrable than the Epic range whereas Id say the Epics are definitely a bit faster on the flat.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fath2o

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Latest Forum Topics

Protected by R Antispam