V12M

11 months 4 weeks ago #29271 by Scode
I see on the Epic Facebook page they are testing a ski called the V12M this week at the Gorge. Its an Elite ski that measures 5.79 meters and the same beam as the new V12.

Seems as though shorter skis are becoming a big thing which I think is a good thing.

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11 months 4 weeks ago #29274 by photofr
Ski design is tricky, mainly because minute modifications will affect the ski. Every design aspect is an effort to compromise something else. Every ski will have pros and cons.

Okay, so that's a lot of statements, but here's what you want to keep in mind:
Find a ski
List its pros (advantages)
See if it meets your intended use

NORMAL SKI LENGTH
I dare say normal because they used to be in the 580 cm range...

Shorter skis will tend to have the following advantages
- more agile: paddle less and catch more bumps
- more rigid: everything being equal, 560cm skis will be stiffer than 650cm skis
- lighter: everything being equal, 560cm skis will be lighter than 650cm skis
- easier to store, transport, and handle
- cost reduction: 20% less material could give you about 20% less cost
- faster acceleration: with over a 1000 documented sprints, I can easily say that shorter skis simply accelerate faster. Don't take my words for it... argue all you want... but first go and compare long vs short

All in all, it's pretty clear that longer skis may go back to the drawing board - for a MAKE-OVER.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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11 months 4 weeks ago #29275 by Jef58
- cost reduction: 20% less material could give you about 20% less cost.

Just kidding around here...but does that mean we will be seeing a 20% off retail prices for sub 20 ft skis anytime soon ?? :woohoo:

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11 months 4 weeks ago #29276 by photofr
I was wondering how long it was going to take for people to talk about MONEY.
ahahahahaha

20% less material could (and should) give us 20% off in price. However, R&D, sponsoring, and marketing will still cost the same for standard or longer skis...

The harsh reality is that we may see a slight cost reduction, perhaps 5-10% (if that)

Sorry if I got your hopes high, but look on the bright side:
That's 20% less wasted material - it's gotta be good for the environment. :)

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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11 months 4 weeks ago - 11 months 4 weeks ago #29283 by Jef58
You could say on the flip side, at least they don't charge more for the longer ones...

It is interesting to see shorter boats coming out. I don't know enough about the design to know if shorter is better or is it more based on what type of water you paddle in...

I have a 17 ft and 19 ft ski and do think the "520's" have a lot of versatility other than being a pure surfski. I'm sure both Think and Nelo sell them to all sorts of paddlers. It would be interesting to hear some design philosophies from different designers and how they come up with certain dimensions.

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11 months 4 weeks ago #29284 by Ranga
Cost reduction? Very much doubt it as the material cost in a ski with a different length is minimal, labour and hardware are the biggest cost and that will change very little. Epic already have shorter skis in their line-up all be it wider and the price is the same across the board.
As for acceleration, it comes to science and hydrodynamics, Wetted area v Drag and things like that.
Another benefit is the shipping cost, anything less than 6m fits into a 20ft container, not so much advantage for the bigger retailers as they take more than what will fit into a 20ft but good for those smaller ones that only need a few skis.

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11 months 3 weeks ago #29286 by LakeMan
My ski is 21.2 feet and it tracks like an arrow. How well does the shorter skis compare? I've never lost a race so I'm thinking paddling in a straight line is very helpful.

(P.S. I've never raced it.)

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

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11 months 3 weeks ago - 11 months 3 weeks ago #29287 by AR_convert
The conditions in which the Epic team are testing these shorter boats are ideal. Short wind generated runners, no swell. This is where the shorter skis really excel at picking up the runners. (Gorge Downwind Champs)

I loved my old Carbonology Vault (not current longer version) for this reason, it sat in the wind generated runners in my local area nicely. (Ocean sound protected from swell)

Before you rush out and buy a shorter ski though, if you do a lot of flat water paddling make sure you are happy with how the boat tracks, as they do have a tendency due to the shorter length not to track as well and a longer waterline ski.

(The reason I moved up to the longer Flash)

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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11 months 3 weeks ago #29288 by photofr

AR_convert wrote:
Before you rush out and buy a shorter ski though, if you do a lot of flat water paddling make sure you are happy with how the boat tracks, as they do have a tendency due to the shorter length not to track as well and a longer waterline ski.

(The reason I moved up to the longer Flash)



That's correct: everything being equal, a longer ski will track better on flat water, however, you can get away with far less rocker (banana shape) on a shorter ski - resulting in:
- great tracking on the flats
- comparable speeds on the flats (flatter ski)
- fantastic agility on swells

It's got to be repeated:
There's no magic formula, everything is a compromise - but man-o-man, this SPORT is just a blast and never gets boring.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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11 months 3 weeks ago #29291 by wesley
I was surprised how well my Nelo 560M tracks and the 550 I paddled briefly. I will begin gathering info for my full 550 review once I get a demo next week. As Ludovic said, not much rocker at all in the shorter skis so thus far the tracking has been fine. I was skeptical on the tracking too before I paddled them.

Wesley Echols
Former Stellar Kayaks and Surfskis, Performance Director, USA ,
SurfskiRacing.com, #1 in Surfski Reviews.

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11 months 3 weeks ago #29294 by AR_convert

wesley wrote: As Ludovic said, not much rocker at all in the shorter skis so thus far the tracking has been fine. I was skeptical on the tracking too before I paddled them.


Good to hear, this was over 5 years ago and I guess there has been a lot of development going on since then, this is model no longer exists. They do have another Vault but its a completely different boat.

It doesn't seem that long ago when shorter, lighter paddlers didn't have all that many options, how that's changed.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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11 months 3 weeks ago #29308 by photofr
Good to see that Epic is adding a shorter ski to its arsenal. Just ask yourselves:

- would they be going shorter if they didn't believe in shorter skis performance???

Perhaps I am just 100% wrong, but take note:
- Fenn, Think, Epic (et al.) will be releasing new surfskis (well, that's a given... it's part of evolution and releasing new models)
- When they do, chances are those skis are no longer going to be 645cm.
- It's very likely that brand new models will come out between 560cm and 600cm.

Still aren't convinced?
Try reading the 2012 Thesis written and tested by Ralph William Baker.
I know you guys hate to read... so here's a simple view:

Based on Ralph's study, if you and YOUR ski weigh less than 103 kilos, you may be a great candidate for a ski that's less than 595cm in length.

Based on my personal experience, a shorter ski is very agile... and accelerates faster. Combine the two and you may have a very clear advantage on your next favorite downwind.

So yeah... I am glad that Epic is also going that route. Logic tells me that others will follow.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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11 months 2 weeks ago #29365 by Cerca Trova
Has anyone here paddled the V12M, or know of anyone who has?
I ask my local dealer to go forward and order me one.

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11 months 1 week ago #29395 by AdrianBruce
I wish to order a V12M too. Does anyone have any info regarding availability?

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11 months 1 week ago #29397 by Cerca Trova
Adrian,
Dave Amadio of kayakinvestors.com (Houston Tx) told me yesterday mine would be here late September, early October.

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11 months 1 week ago #29403 by AdrianBruce
That's great, thanks for the info Cerca Trova. So it sounds like they are actually in production.

Are there any official specs or info available? I have only seen a few pics of the prototypes being raced. I love the new V12, but also really like the short length of the Nelo 560. In theory the V12M sounds perfect.

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