How do you get a slick bucket?

11 months 3 weeks ago #37129 by Sinkme
I do almost all flat water paddling every other day or so, often with a dry suit, with no regular washing into the bucket from waves.  When I wax the bucket it's fantastic for about 15 minutes, then, I can still rotate, but it's quite a grind.

Is there a secret hard wax out there or baggy silk shorts to put over my gear that works?  A few years ago I saw Greg Barton putting in some waxy looking sheet stuff into his bucket when mounting, but I was too shy to ask about it.

I'm sure there is a good joke to go with the subject tittle.  Don't disappoint me gang.

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11 months 3 weeks ago #37135 by tve
Replied by tve on topic How do you get a slick bucket?
I put UHWM tape on my seat pads so they are nice smooth slippery. It's not the cheapest stuff, but works great.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00823JFM6  works for me, but there are other options out there...
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11 months 2 weeks ago #37138 by Sinkme
Thank you very much!  
I have some tape on the way to me now. I can't wait to try it.

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11 months 2 weeks ago #37140 by waverider
I thought wax was for grip. 

Tried just putting a plastic bag on the seat?

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11 months 2 weeks ago #37147 by Sinkme
I use real wax for better handle grip every 6 months or so.  I keep the ski outside in a cover, but every year I still need boat wax to stop the yellowing and get a shine back.  The "boat wax" i use (Fleetwax) DOES have real wax in it with a mild abrasive for the yellowing.  Huh...

I really like the plastic bag suggestion. I'll try that first once the weather improves.

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11 months 2 weeks ago #37149 by Wombat661

tve wrote: I put UHWM tape on my seat pads so they are nice smooth slippery. It's not the cheapest stuff, but works great.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00823JFM6  works for me, but there are other options out there...


The tape is 3" wide. Did you have problem putting the tape down in the bucket without wrinkles.
I tried a 1" wide tape that is .022 thick. Maybe that is too thick. It would not bend around the curves in the bucket. Had to cut it like planking a boat. Still looking for something better.
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11 months 2 weeks ago #37152 by Paddlehead
Where I paddle we only ever need to use the same paddling gear year round. Maybe a thicker rash vest in winter. Why doesn't splashing water into your bucket, down the back, work? Is the dry suit grippy? Is the water too cold? Not even sure what a dry suit is made of. Water and fibreglass is a slippery combination usually. Curious what the water is like where you paddle. In summer our water is 23-24 * C. In winter the temp I 16*C. In spring the air temp can be 2* early, but will be 20*C+ as the day goes on. Daylight is more of a problem, As a 6am paddle is in total darkness usually.

Current: NK Storm 61, Kayak Centre Zeplin.

Past: Epic gen3 V10, Fenn Elite carbon, Fenn Elite Vac glass, Fenn Elite SL, Gen 1 Stellar SEL ultra, Epic V10 gen 2, Carbonology Vault, Fenn Swordfish, Red7 pro 70, Think Legend, Red7 60, Fenn Xt.

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11 months 2 weeks ago #37156 by Funsurfer
Hi i wear a cheap short sport trousers over my long john neoprene . That works just fine for rotation for me.

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11 months 2 weeks ago #37157 by Sinkme
I tried the double plastic layer this morning. It was good for about 20 minutes. At it's best it worked a little better than a teflon sheet I found used for iron on thansfers, bought from a fabric shop. That works for a full hour.  The goal is that "this boat is going to slip right off my but" feeling I get when Ive just waxed the bucket (Fleetwax, lasts 15 min).
I'm reluctant to sticking the tape I bought to the bottom of the bucket.  That bugs me somehow and I suspect the results it will be the same as the teflon sheet.
I REALY want to try the sport shorts over all my gear.  That sounds the most flexible for what ever I'm wearing.  It's great to hear that it does works for someone.  Will look for something real big with a draw string.
Back ground:
I paddle in water that's 50 to 70 deg F, air temp 40 to 80.  I think a dry suit is more flexible
for these temperature extremes than a set of wet suits.  Think of a Gortex coat onesey with reinforced fabric for the but. Put more stuff on underneath for the colder weather. Also, I'm a flat water guy.  I use my ski like others use a road bike to stay in shape (lost 20 lbs since retiring 6 month ago, 15 lbs to go).  A bike would be fine if I had not spent so many years trying not to kill bikers myself while commuting. 
I will do waves some day for fun in Puget Sound or down in the gorge with a radio and an instructor behind to clean up any yard sales that occur, but not that's not my day to day use.

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11 months 2 weeks ago #37158 by Sinkme
Funsurfer,
Do you know the type of material of your sport shorts? Polyester mesh perhaps?

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11 months 2 weeks ago #37159 by Funsurfer
hi sinkme. They write its from 100 % polyerster. may the help. 
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11 months 1 week ago #37160 by Arcturus
I thought buckets were slick, period. If your drysuit is like mine, the Cordura reinforced butt patch might be the culprit. 

When I paddled kayaks with various kinds of seats, the only type that did not end up with the Cordura binding was unpadded glossy gelcoated fiberglass—in other words, similar to a ski bucket. Any seat cover that was fabric, even a fairly slippery one but with stitching to contoured foam underneath, would bind during rolling. Worst were the fuzzy Jackson “Sweet Cheeks” pad in my WW kayak, and the homemade minicell foam seat I installed in my wood kayak.

Wearing ordinary neoprene wetsuits has worked well in my ski, so I’ll probably sell the drysuit.

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11 months 1 week ago #37161 by Sinkme
This maybe a double reply. First one did not go through?
Well, my flat water problem looks to be solved.  Changing the boat wax used in the bucket gave me a full hour of smooth/slick leg drive using the teflon sheet (previously shown to be as good as two plastic bags). I was using Fleetwax and instead put on two coats of Meguiar's (Flagship Premium).  Let dry a bit before buffing out each time. Wow. We will see how long that lasts, but a full hour at 80% heart rate is very usable for me.
Next up is trying to replace the teflon sheet with sport shorts. I don't see being able to remount back on to a teflon sheet after falling out in any conditions.

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10 months 2 weeks ago #37309 by David Grainger
I'm experimenting with an industrial 'friction reduction coating' called EC2600  http://www.ecologicalcoatings.com/frictionreduction.html   It's a catalyzed water-based coating.   It's designed to be sprayed or rolled.  Since I don't have a sprayer and the seat is concave so rollers don't work, I brushed mine on.  Just got back from a 2 hour paddle catching powerboat wakes on Long Island Sound (salt water). There was no reduction in slipperyness, and no visible deterioration in the coating.  I used to paddle a Nelo Vanquish with a rotating seat, and the experience paddling my 560 with part of the bucket coated with EC 2600 is very similar.  Virtually no resistance to lower body rotation.  If this holds up it will be a game changer, at least for me.

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10 months 2 weeks ago #37311 by CrabStick
This is intriguing finding ways to rotate better by lowering resistance. Particularly helpful on flat water when bucket may not get wet and no great challenge to stability.
As an intermediate paddler often in multidirection waves (and swells) I try to let the boat tilt under me but still find that I try to correct tilt somewhat using pressure of my butt in the bucket mostly while paddle is solid in water during catch. I am curious to how the above contributors find the slippery bucket affects stability?

CrabStick

Current Boats: BlueFin S, Swordfish S, Fenn Spark S
Previous: Think Eze, Stellar SR, Carbonology Boost LV

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10 months 2 weeks ago #37315 by Wombat661
David Grainger, that coating sure sounds like a winner. Do you have more information on that coating like were you considering different types of coating before you settled on EC2600. How much is it? Is it permanent (assume it is)?

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10 months 2 weeks ago - 10 months 2 weeks ago #37318 by David Grainger
I Googled slippery coating, and this company came up.  Then I emailed them This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and asked if it would work to enhance rotation on a surfski.  I attached a link to a video of Danuta Kozak to show what rotation looks like
.  Nick Patenaude responded and recommended the EC2600 This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. It is quite expensive.  I bought a 250ml 'trial kit,' which has enough product for more than 10 applications, assuming you're just putting it on the area where a seat pad would go.  It was $57 USD. So far I've paddled about 4 hours on salt water, and it's still slippery and hasn't visibly worn.  I'm careful to rinse it off before I sit down, so no beach sand, and I'm not on a brown river, so no silt in the water. I'm wearing Vaikobi VOcean lycra shorts, which I find grippy on the untreated polished gelcoat on both my boats (Fenn Mako6 and 2018 Nelo 560). 

They recommend spraying or rolling it, but I brushed it, and that created fisheyes which I had to go over a second time with a damp brush to smooth out.  It really doesn't like that,  because it flashes very quickly.  I use a small scale to measure it by weight. I used 6gm product, 1gm catalyst, and I added .35gm additive & extender which did nothing to prevent fisheyes but did extend the wet edge slightly, and thinned the mix with 1.5gm water.

My experience paddling with it is that it really reduces the effort to swivel your butt on the seat, which greatly enhances lower body rotation.  The only problem is, unlike the rotating seat some Olympic sprinters use, this has no center to the rotation, so your butt can also slide sideways on the seat. Not a problem on flat water, but when you get in a beam chop it makes the boat feel less stable.  It's important that there is no space between your hips and the sides of the bucket, to limit this.

I increased this instability in my Nelo by extending the coating maybe 1/3 of the way up the sides of the bucket to free up the hips, and this might have been a mistake.  Might be better to just use it on the bottom of the seat, and not run it up on the sides of the bucket.

It is trainable though. I did some beam intervals yesterday to test it and was able to feel more stable, and was faster by the last one.   Definitely going to require more experience to feel comfortable with the new rotational freedom!
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10 months 2 weeks ago - 10 months 2 weeks ago #37322 by DrA5
Replied by DrA5 on topic How do you get a slick bucket?
  • Have you tried Honda polish?  It's found in motorcycle shops or maybe automotive shops.  Its a spray on, wipe off cleaner and polish. It should slicken up the seat. I use it on my boat occasionally. 

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10 months 1 week ago #37326 by DenSki
David,

You've come up with a new solution! This one looks more complicated than the marine polish. Sounds like you like it better? I found that the marine polish only lasted a paddle or two, then needed reapplying. I'll be curious to hear how long this one lasts--and if it would work on the tape that I use to cover my seat pad.

I bought the tape that is also mentioned in this discussion and am trying it now. It initially stuck well to the pipe wrap tape that covers my seat pads. Only question I have is how long it will stay adhesive, since it doesn't seem designed for wet applications. All the people who buy it on Amazon seem to use it on squeaky drawers--not the kind you wear. After two paddles with the tape in, I've seen some edges come loose. Time will tell!

Nelo 550, Fenn Bluefin for big days

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