Transition from V10 Sport Performance to V12 Ultra

More
12 years 2 months ago #4132 by alexhunter72
Four weeks ago I sold my V10 Sport Performance and bought a V12 Ultra. The Sydney Epic team looked after me very well.

These are my initial thoughts on the V12 Ultra after regularly paddling it since then during training on the harbour and offshore, and competing in a few Balmoral Blasts, 2 Harbour Series races and the Bridge to Beach last weekend:

- Weight difference is awesome (~15kg down to ~10kg), apart from ease of off-water use (carrying, putting on the car, portaging etc), the improvement in acceleration on the water is very noticeable.

- Tippiness is slighlty increased but not too bad (nowhere near as tippy as I thought it would be), I think this is because my 100kg weight pins the ski down in the water quite nicely. I've fallen off a few times in cross-swells in the big seas off Bondi in the last few weeks, but I don't think I fall off any more than I would in the V10 Sport in those tricky conditions. Remount is no different to V10 Sport.

-Steering in runs is improved over the V10 Sport (maybe because I'm getting on more runs, or going quicker on them?)

- In small conditions, it picks up small (and even tiny) runs/waves/washes like you wouldn't believe, and the improved acceleration lets you get onto these with a few hard pumps. This is one very awesome thing about paddling the V12 on Sydney Harbour where there is always some chop/wash.

-My speed in the water has improved by around 1 to 1.5km/h at any given 'pressure' according to my GPS. Top speed is higher by 1-1.5km/h, hopefully more as I learn to paddle it properly.

- Seat is a nice tight fit compared to V10 Sport, and just as comfortable, although the initial feel of it is a bit different.

- Increasing my paddle length by 1cm 'feels' better in the V12.

- Resale on my 18 month old V10 Sport Performance was very good.

I'll write another review after a few more months getting used to the V12.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 2 months ago #4138 by svengali
interesting that you dont find the v12 that much tippier than the v10Sport. from my test paddle on both i found the v12 significantly less stable. Agree though about its small bump ability - it wants to chase bumps like a dog straining off the leash. in the end i hopped into the Think Legend and much preferred the cockpit 'fit' and paddling position, which allowed more leg drive. V12 sure is a nice boat though.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6454 by EK Sydney
I've just made the same transition, from a V10S to a V12. I'm also heavy, 96kg & 6ft, and to me the V12 feels pretty much like the V10S did when I first started paddling it a year ago. I have to pay a bit more attention in multidirectional water, but it's nowhere near as demanding as I thought it would be.
I bought it mainly for bay fitness paddling, but now feel pretty confident about chasing downwind stuff at sea. I understand lighter paddlers don;t get the same reassurance with the stability on the V12, but it is definitely very solid with my weight.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6455 by Rightarmbad
Definitely a common theme, bigger people find the V12 very stable.
Yes it moves more in little tiny stuff that will never put you in the water, but it is less troubled by the bigger stuff.
I also find the V12 much easier to get into than a V10 due to the lower sides.
I find the Fennn Elite the same, it tips around a bit more in the flat, but is better behaved in the worrisome stuff.

I think that a narrower waterline is less inclined to follow the wave surface and tip around, where as a wide hull will definitely tip with whatever the water angle is.

I find the speed difference interesting. I jumped out of my V10 performance and into a V12 red nose just as I was finished some intervals.
I had a pretty consistent speed during these intervals and when I jumped into the V12, a quick look at the GPS told me I was at least 1.3kmh faster in the V12.

The paddle length makes sense if you think about it.
If you go faster and still want your body to rate the same, then your paddle needs to be longer to make up for more speed.

Paddle length is more a function of the speed you are moving at and the cadence you like to paddle at than anything else.
That's why we all tend to use similar paddle lengths, longer people have a naturally longer stroke, only that longer people tend to like to rate a little slower do the paddles tend to be a little longer.

So a faster boat will generally need a slightly longer paddle.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6456 by EK Sydney
I'm amazed by the stability difference between the V10 and the V12 for me. I wonder what the major factor, weight to stability, it is about the respective hulls that accounts for this? I understand the V10 isn't as demanding for lighter paddlers? My V12 is fast, so nice to paddle, but I'd still take the V10S out when its multidirectional.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6460 by Marieski
Ok so it's not a V12 Ultra I changed to, but a V10L Elite, from a V10S Performance. My point is that the lightness makes a significant difference to stability if you're also a light person. I felt confident I should fairly rapidly accommodate to the narrower V10, having test paddled the Performance model and felt comfortable in it.This has not proved to be the case for the Elite. Yep, it's amazingly wonderful to carry around out of the water. I'm also sure it accelerates faster onto runs than the V10S.But boy, is it a pain in small chop. Interestingly the difference in tippiness from the V10S is less in bigger water and going faster. I think the lightness and stiffness makes it react more to ripples and my weight (58kg) exacerbates the problem as I'm just not sitting low enough in the water.

I'm allround 0.5-1km/hr slower on it, even excluding remounts. Demonstrating once again, that if you don't have the stability, you can't put the power down.

Past skis: Spirit PRS, EpicV10Sport Performance, Epic V10 Elite, Stellar SES Advantage. Current skis: Fenn Elite Spark, Fenn Swordfish vacuum. Custom Horizon, Epic V7

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6461 by Rightarmbad
Which brings me back to my point of needlessly grading yourself up through many boats.
I bet that time spent in easier water in a V10l would have paid you more dividends than learning different techniques in the V10s.
The boats behave completely differently and so the skills don't crossover.
As I said before, change the water you paddle in whilst you learn, not the boat......water's free.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6465 by [email protected]
why do you prefer the Legend t the V12?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6479 by Marieski
Rightarmbad wrote:

Which brings me back to my point of needlessly grading yourself up through many boats.
I bet that time spent in easier water in a V10l would have paid you more dividends than learning different techniques in the V10s.
The boats behave completely differently and so the skills don't crossover.


This suggests I shouldn't have bothered paddling in harder conditions in the V10S but upgraded earlier.

As I said before, change the water you paddle in whilst you learn, not the boat......water's free.[/quote]

While this implies I should have spent more time in different conditions before upgrading!

Maybe we do logic differently in Australia. :laugh:

My main point is the difference in behaviour for different layups for the same model ski and I propose this is exacerbated for lighter paddlers. I was able to test paddle the V10 Performance and felt quite comfortable in it.


Past skis: Spirit PRS, EpicV10Sport Performance, Epic V10 Elite, Stellar SES Advantage. Current skis: Fenn Elite Spark, Fenn Swordfish vacuum. Custom Horizon, Epic V7

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago - 11 years 2 months ago #6480 by Rightarmbad
My logic is this.
If you know that you are going to be in the sport for the long haul, get the tippy one and paddle it in calm water whilst you develop basic balance.
You also get to know the behavior of the ski very well whilst you do this.
Then progress into difficult water at you own speed.
Pick your days to venture into the bump and take on real ocean gradually.
This way you only buy one ski and not waste any on an upgrade.
You also have a very good knowledge of the ski itself before you venture into more difficult situations, which makes learning those new situations easier as you already have a huge knowledge base built in that ski.
Maybe others just have more disposable cash than me to be able to buy several ski's, but for me, varying water conditions is free.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson
Last edit: 11 years 2 months ago by Rightarmbad.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6481 by outriggerbev
Marie-I tried all the low volume boats as i found myself too light for my v10 sport (it was slaping around in the surf once I got up to downwind runs) .decided on the stellar ses as it was clearly the most stable -and was faster as a result.Wasn't going to take it out into the open for a few months (was just concentrating on flatwater (technical ect) but cant ignore the calling of the wind and am more comfortable on this boat after two months than on the v10 sport.I did notice that the venturi was draining slower-in actual fact you notice it well as the lower volume boat sits down more so more chop can flood the cocpit at times-but Andy the Brisbane agent phoned me up just yesterday to tell me that he had just been contacted by Stellar and there was a Bullet coming out of flying eagle factory as we speak in response to this prob .happy days- hope you get confident with your new boat and have lots of fun. Bev.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6483 by Tom_D
I build my own bullet for my SES and it makes a significant improvement in lowering the speed that the drain starts to work (not much difference in overall speed of draining). Ed told me that the factory one should be available soon.

Tom

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6484 by Perth ski chick
Marie- I'm with you on this light weight thing! I'm also 58kg and I paddle a V10L Performance, I get knocked around a lot in the chop and it took me a while to get used to that.

Last year I decided a more stable ski might be the go for me so I took out a friend's V10 Sport in the Ultra layup. And it was TIPPIER than my L. There are a few of us sub-60kg women here who agree, light people should not paddle light boats!

They are nice to carry but if you put on a pitiful expression you can always get a man to help carry your 14kg ski. :-)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6485 by Rightarmbad
I suggest that it is that light people shouldn't paddle BIG boats.
Big boats have high windage and with smaller people having such a small water contact, they are bound to be blown around.

I'll bet that a very skinny boat that will sit down in the water will be the answer for little people.
A little shorter probably too.

K1's never seem to have a problem in the wind, it's just the tip of a wave with their low secondary stability that gets them.

There really is a market for a low volume fast boat, you just need to scream louder at the manufacturers.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago - 11 years 2 months ago #6486 by AR_convert
Rightarmbad wrote:

There really is a market for a low volume fast boat, you just need to scream louder at the manufacturers.


At the risk of sounding like a sales rep for carbonology :huh: this is from thier website....

"...... borne from a deep seated belief that the current fleet of ocean surf skis had become oversized for the majority of paddlers.

Gary along with paddling partner Rob Welsh recognised the need to design an ocean surf ski for the smaller set paddlers, ladies and juniors.

With this aim as a design brief, Rob Welsh designed a stunning ocean ski and together with Hein Van Rooyen brought the Atom to fruition.

The Atom is a genuine lower volume ocean racing ski, designed to assist the many of us who find the alternate craft too high volume and chunky for comfortable paddling.

This boat is unrivalled for pure speed. It is very fast in the flat water, and can be used for marathon racing, but is extremmely effective in downwind conditions
."

Be aware though this is an elite level ski and would need lots of work to become confident in. Perhaps they could be encouraged to design a boat with a similar concept but more stable ;)

Always looking for the next boat :)
Last edit: 11 years 2 months ago by AR_convert.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6487 by Downwind Rules
The Carbonology Vault is the more stable boat in the Carbonology stable. Although it is a bigger boat that the Carbonology Atom, it is still markedly less bulky than the other boats around. This has the same lower volume theory in its design but is just so stable. It has achieved a wonderful balance between speed, stability and volume.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6488 by Marieski
I seem to have caused this thread to veer off to "Boats for small people" but it's a very worthwhile veer!

Any other suggestions,folks?

Is my general impression that the Europeans cover this area better than the Aussies or Saffas correct?

Past skis: Spirit PRS, EpicV10Sport Performance, Epic V10 Elite, Stellar SES Advantage. Current skis: Fenn Elite Spark, Fenn Swordfish vacuum. Custom Horizon, Epic V7

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6489 by Tom_D
I moved from a V10S to a Stellar SES late last fall. I like the SES so far but it is still winter here so I haven't paddled it too much. It will be my primary boat this season. First impressions are that it is a little less stable than the V10S but a MUCH better fit and is faster on flat water. The Epic is 19" wide and the SES is only 16.7" and the SES is slightly longer than the V10S. The only negative that I noticed in the 20 or so hours I paddled it last fall was that the Stellar has a deeper seat that makes it harder to remount. I can almost sit side-saddle in the V10S in waves and eat lunch -- definitely not so in the SES.

I have only the Performance layup in the V10 and the Advantage layup in the SES.

Tom

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6491 by Downwind Rules
Marieski, what makes you say this last point

Have tried the Vault or Atom?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 2 months ago #6499 by Marieski
Hello DR

Nelos I suppose. I was hoping for some European suggestions.

Didn't like the SES, Tom, though it sounded great in theory.

I haven't tried the Carbonologies.But it looks as though I should. An aeroplane will be required as I live in Tasmania.

Cheers, Marie

Past skis: Spirit PRS, EpicV10Sport Performance, Epic V10 Elite, Stellar SES Advantage. Current skis: Fenn Elite Spark, Fenn Swordfish vacuum. Custom Horizon, Epic V7

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Latest Forum Topics

Protected by R Antispam