The holy grail of surfski design - ultimately ...

2 months 4 weeks ago - 2 months 4 weeks ago#29735by Uffilation
spacehopper,
see SUP .. if you think about how many folks paddle SUP, low numbers though > as you can climb back on easily, almost like a s600 should be ... compare with kayak

pdf link
c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.americancanoe.org/..._Fatality_Statis.pdf
or go to www.americancanoe.org if you want to

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2 months 4 weeks ago#29737by sandysan
At the risk of inviting charges of sockpuppeting it is remarkable how similar we are. I have you in age, we are about the same weight we paddle the same boat, we both have sprint kayak experience ( me a little more but it was long ago) and there is no doubt, no doubt at all in my mind that the feeling of a boat surging below you under a perfect catch is my white whale.

A white whale of a boat simply won't do.

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2 months 4 weeks ago#29738by Boyan Zlatarev
Hi SurfskiEstonia,

I have learned over the years that when people challenge ideas they just need more information. I don't focus on the person but the topic.

I have to make a note that I don't believe that suitable boat can replace coaching process.

Without speculating about the exact reason in your technique, from what you are saying it is obvious that lack of stability doesn't allow you to get the true potential of your surfski and I think that if you paddled Nelo 520 instead you would be able to achieve better improvement and even better average speed to start with.

Will the 520 limit your development if you wanted to go faster after let's say 2 years?

Maybe, but that doesn't mean that you would have exhausted all the opportunities the 520 provides for your development.

Can you achieve more or less the same result in the boat you are using currently?

Maybe, but it will take longer and there is a possibility that you never get to the level of technical proficiency if you never experience full stability.

Full stability means that the thought of stability doesn't enter your mind under any context. Only in this condition you would be able to focus on developing your paddling skills related to stroke technique.

I can be a lot more specific if I analyse stroke technique.

Best Regards
Boyan
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2 months 4 weeks ago#29740by Boyan Zlatarev
Hi Sandysan,

As a surfski professional I am always curious how people decide to enter the sport.

May I ask about your thought process when you decided to opt for what seems to be a more stable surfski option compared to just buying the latest ICF boat?

For someone who paddles in flat water, finds happiness in paddling unstable boats and enjoys the sensation of the boat driving under powerful catch, I would have thought Nelo Cinco would deliver a lot better on the descriptions above.

What decision making process got you to take a considerably more stable surfski instead?

Best Regards
Boyan

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2 months 4 weeks ago#29741by sandysan
I paddle alone, so wet mounts. you ever tried wet mounting a sprint kayak ? and if I wanted to drive to the coast and get out into the surf, you think a cinco is a reasonable boat ?

and I think you are genuinely asking but the way you ask is akin to me asking if you want to paddle a surfing barge why dont you seek out a used perception five 0 ? Which is a REAL planing surfski that is shorter and was the hypothetical boat I thought the vapor ware 600 was based on. But its still not quite three FEET wide so maybe a modified pescador is more up your alley. because after all stability and fun trumps all, amirite ?

and to be frank I dont have to justify my choice of boat to you or anyone else.

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2 months 4 weeks ago#29742by LaPerouseBay

sandysan wrote: At the risk of inviting charges of sockpuppeting it is remarkable how similar we are. I have you in age, we are about the same weight we paddle the same boat, we both have sprint kayak experience ( me a little more but it was long ago) and there is no doubt, no doubt at all in my mind that the feeling of a boat surging below you under a perfect catch is my white whale.

A white whale of a boat simply won't do.


Ok sandysan, I'll take the bait.

I had a look back at your history on this forum.

www.surfski.info/forum/17-equipment/1895...t-anchors.html#28832

3 months 1 week in a surfski? And you bought an elite ski to begin with?

Lighten up with the vitriol, it's not polite in an international forum. We are here to help each other.

Taking cryptic swipes at this thread is exposing you as an unhappy paddler. Boyan has a surfski school with thousands of lessons under his belt. What have you ever done?

If a stable boat is good enough for Hank and Oscar to drill on... Wow, this is madness...

I wan't to try to set the record straight for novices that may be the slightest bit confused about this thread and the message it should send.

I'm going to get a bit mean towards sandysan. ONLY to help beginners avoid his mistakes.

sandysan, if you want to start in an old, elite level ski, fine. You are going to struggle with technique, that's just how it is, get used to it.

Until then, stop acting like your method is valid. It isn't. All the veterans have seen it before. You just don't know what you don't know. It's a simple fact that you will learn with experience.

New paddlers, take note. If you buy an elite ski as a first boat, you won't have much fun. If sandysan was having fun, his posts would be a lot more cheerful and helpful, not critical, mean spirited and full of anger.

The forward stroke is the holy grail, not the boat. sandysan felt cheated because he expected (needed) a magic boat.

There is no magic elite boat and there never will be.

Elite skis are unlimited in their design, therefore, they won't get much faster. Any added stability will slow them down. That's just how it is.

As for the downwind vs. flatwater controversy on this thread, that's the really sad part of the story.

Surfski 600 is primarily aimed at downwind fun. Surfing fun, fun all around. That's where the sport is going, that's why all the boats have changed so much in the past 5 years. That's what Boyan and all the manufacturers are promoting, because they want to sell boats.

The elephant in the room is that Surfski 600 applies to flat water as well. This is where it all went sideways for sandysan.

Surfski 600 is not only about surfing, downwinding and fun. It's geared that way to get people into the sport, sure.

But the real trick (for us intermediate paddlers) is that it's critical to get in a stable boat to learn how to paddle on flat water too. That's why even Hank and Oscar drill in stable boats. It's important.

That's what clinics will teach you. That's what Oscar and Ivan Lawler teach. Ivan Lawler begins his excellent video with the simple statement, "kayaking is hard."

Flat water paddlers that think they don't need a stable boat to learn the forward stroke are only fooling themselves. The numbers tell the tale. Only experienced paddlers can harness the potential of a skinny boat on flat water. It take's a lot of talent and practice.

sandysan is doing it the hard way. Good luck to him. He's going to need it.

Novices - don't get confused. Old, elite boats are cheap for a reason. They are not much fun. In the long run, they are a giant waste of time. Boats have changed a lot over the past 5 years. The intermediate boats and beginner boats are not slow boats. They go like hell if you know how to paddle.

There are exceptions to every rule, sure. I sold my 1st gen V-10 to a guy as his first boat. But, he's a professional Sup racer and coach. He's doing just fine. He makes that big 10 go a hell of a lot faster than I ever did. Would he benefit from a more stable boat? Probably. Beats me, I'm not a coach.

Boyan could tell him. We are lucky to have him on this forum... Taking swipes at him is only making you look bad sandysan... Novices, beware.

downwind dilettante
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2 months 4 weeks ago#29743by sandysan
Ive paddled most days in those three months, and although my form may not be exactly what I would like, the number of times I got wet is exactly zero.

maybe the decade I spent paddling and racing icf sprint kayaks ( middle of the pack or worse) as a younger man might have something to do with it. but I will defer to your cybersleuting skills.

you want to side with a guy who deceived this group and who offers unsolictied advice about the suitability of a boat for someone who he doesnt know, go ahead. Fine by me,

oh and in case your google foo isnt as strong, I also paddled and raced sprint canoes, so the stability of my elite "old" surfski isnt much of a problem, thanks.

i guess because someone likes surfing and teaches thousands that it means that's the only way to paddle a surf ski. and that people who want to MOVE their boats under their own power and are willing to suffer to do so are nothing but a bunch of rubes. if you value efficiency and fun fine by me. ebikes require minimal effort and are fun as well ( or so I'm told)

not only is your boat not skinny enough, your skin seems to be trying to make up for it.

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2 months 4 weeks ago#29744by LaPerouseBay

sandysan wrote: /
but I will defer to your cybersleuting skills.
/
oh and in case your google foo isnt as strong,
/


No cybersleuthing or google necessary. On this and every other forum I've ever visited, all you have to do is click on the username of the poster.

Then you can easily read what they have written in the past. It's a handy way to spot trolls. Not that you are a troll, but, that's what it's probably for.

As for your contributions to this thread, I'm not impressed. All the great paddlers here on Maui are very helpful and friendly. All you did was complain.

As for being deceived, well that's just silly. Any veteran paddler that clicked on Boyan's facebook thread on this "magic" boat and saw that bar graph without numbers wasn't fooled. We all got a grin and said, "Ha, what is that all about?" Two seconds of contemplation later. "Oh, I see, that's what happens with a new paddler." "All you have to do is attach the right numbers on the ordinate and abscissa, That's freaking classic!"

Kudos Boyan! The giant grin on his face was a dead giveaway.

sandysan, you got fooled because you don't know beans about skis. Your bitter nature on this thread seems odd. Lighten up man, skis are fun!

downwind dilettante

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2 months 4 weeks ago - 2 months 4 weeks ago#29746by Boyan Zlatarev
Hey Sandysan

I really would like to focus on the topic and will not respond to personal opinions of me.

I don't like assumptions and I ask a lot of questions so I could express educated opinion.

From what I gather from your replies I'm getting that you made your choice of surfski the exact same way I teach our students to make theirs.

- Consider your skills level
- Consider your goals
- Consider the paddling environment

Select a boat.

Now I see that for you selecting an "elite" level surfski is in fact a more stable and safer option compared to selecting the fastest and meanest ICF boat for the reasons you indicated.

Of course your decision was based on:

- Previous experience in ICF boats
- Your ability to keep balance in any boat
- Your prefferred aquatic environment flat water
- Racing goals

I want to point out that this is Surfski 600 type of process and for different people the end result will be different model selection. For some it will be V5 for other V8 and some others maybe V14...there is nothing wrong with any of those choices.

I'm not sure why people keep putting words in my mouth that I only think that fun is to paddle huge downwind. This is not true and as I have stated many times already I believe everyone has the right to chose how they have fun in a surfski.

That doesn't change the message:

1. Get a boat you can handle
2. Practice your skills
3. Have fun (whatever that means to you)

In conclusion I have to say that personality attacks have never delivered great learning in discussions on any topic.

Happy paddling!
Boyan

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2 months 4 weeks ago#29748by Fath2o
i'm guessing Sandysan voted for Cheeto. Ouch!

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2 months 4 weeks ago#29749by zachhandler
If anyone wants to hear Boyan talk about this project the podcast is at the bottom of this page:

tcsurfski.com/2017/08/24/ppp-episode-18-...00-revealed-boyan-z/

The question of whether it is better to learn flatwater technique in a stable or tippy boat is an interesting one. I suspect stable is better but that is just a guess. Maybe someone who is a flatwater coach on this forum can weigh in?
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2 months 4 weeks ago#29750by sandysan
Yeah I'm the one who intentionally misled everyone in an attempt to get people on my side to potentially enrich myself.

Oh no, wait, that wasn't me at all!

I ask for clarification and I'm called a bully. I say that the ruse was deceitful and was told that it was for the greater good. I'm the one who was told by a freaking stranger that I would be better off in another boat, I return the compliment and the forum columbos get whipped into a frenzy.

Yeah by all accounts, I'm the bad guy.

If you want to paddle lakes and rivers and you want to go fast a barge is a bad choice. If you want to surf and have fun it might not be the best choice but reversing that a uber stable ski isn by definition, the best boat becuase boyan said so. Not buying it.

Again f you want to side with a guy who essentially lied and offers unsolicited advice, who is more likely to vote for cheeto?

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2 months 4 weeks ago - 2 months 4 weeks ago#29751by Boyan Zlatarev
Wow Sandysan

This is exactly what I meant by saying that focusing on personalities and not the topic is not the best way.

I can't remember giving the forum character Sandysan any personal advise on what boat they should paddle.

Few people asked for my opinion and I always stressed on the process of selecting a surfski rather than suggesting a specific model.

Please let me know how someone could "enrich" themselves by calling for people not to use fake advertising that confuses the market and bringing attention to the use of stable boats?

For reference please read how most brands advertise their surfski models and you will see consistently how each consecutive model is faster and more stable than the previous or the competition. This is maybe what you should be protesting against as those are real product and people pay real money for them.

Surfski 600 never requested payments from anyone nor spoke about any price point.

I would love to hear how I could "potentially enrich" myself though? Please PM me with ideas. I'm open to suggestions as long as it doesn't involve any illegal activity.

Best Regards
Boyan

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2 months 4 weeks ago#29752by Fath2o
:whistle:
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2 months 4 weeks ago - 2 months 4 weeks ago#29753by LakeMan
I want truth in advertising. Back in the 80's I stopped eating eggs for three years because of this ad campaign.



I still pause before eating them to make sure I'm doing the right thing. Bad habits are hard to break.

:-)

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

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2 months 4 weeks ago - 2 months 4 weeks ago#29754by Boyan Zlatarev
I would like to ask everyone participating in this conversation to read this below and let me know if this sounds like words that rather agree or disagree with Surfski 600 message?

"I have SAS (surfski acquisition syndrome) pretty bad. I'm always looking for something to make me faster, more efficient.

As I just sat there alone this morning I realized that although there is nothing wrong with those goals, if you can't stop and SEE what these boats allow you see, you are missing out. Missing out bigtime.

Tomorrow I will likely worry about speed and my heart rate, but today, no. Not interested.
"

It seems to me that people could find fun in just sitting and watching...is it wrong? I don't think so!


As they say in Hawaii

Aloha nui loa!!!

:)
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2 months 4 weeks ago - 2 months 4 weeks ago#29755by Spacehopper

LaPerouseBay wrote: Novices - don't get confused. Old, elite boats are cheap for a reason. They are not much fun. In the long run, they are a giant waste of time. Boats have changed a lot over the past 5 years. The intermediate boats and beginner boats are not slow boats. They go like hell if you know how to paddle.


+100 :)

A top post all round, but particularly this. ^^^^




Uffilation wrote: spacehopper,
see SUP .. if you think about how many folks paddle SUP, low numbers though > as you can climb back on easily, almost like a s600 should be ... compare with kayak

pdf link
c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.americancanoe.org/..._Fatality_Statis.pdf
or go to www.americancanoe.org if you want to


Indeed, interesting data. Of course with US data there'd the added complication of those sit-in 'rec' kayaks with the giant cockpits. They're sort of the worst of all worlds and as far as I can tell only a US/NA thing?

Ultimately the average V5 buying novice is unlikely to be of the Darwin Award candidate level that sometimes make the news (and people assume is somehow representative of all SOT paddlers). :)

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2 months 4 weeks ago#29756by davgdavg

Fath2o wrote: i'm guessing Sandysan voted for Cheeto. Ouch!


Yet, you're the one brining politics and personal insults into the thread from nowhere?



Just my opinion, but politics should be banned from the forum, and members making such outrageously idiotic comments like yours should be banned with no second chances...IMO.

Political opinions are like buttholes...and these days especially stinky ones.

Stick to surfskis why dontcha?

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2 months 4 weeks ago#29757by davgdavg
1) I can't believe people can't admit that a ski that demands more balance also demands better technique and training. That's how people learn. You start with the abc's, then you read simple words, then more complex ones and then sentences, then books, etc. Same with everything in the entire world.

2) I think everyone can agree that the point is to have fun.
2b) Boyan chose a particularly controversial way to convey this opinion.

3) People wanting the latest greatest regardless of practicality is human nature. Arguing against that is like arguing against gravity.

4) Its way past time that the OP or a mod close the thread as people are starting to say things out of place and its not serving anyone anymore in my humble opinion.

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2 months 4 weeks ago#29758by Boyan Zlatarev
Hi Davgdavg
I totally agree that this tread could close now.

I also totally disagree with some of the conclusions listed; at least if i understood correctly:

1. Unstable surfski demands better technique to manage properly but acquiring such surfski is not the best way to achieve that mastery. As you said you have to start from ABC and for 99% of the people sitting in an elite surfski expecting something positive to happen is like starting from X, Y, Z.

2. I agree that having good time on water is most important and in order for that to happen, whatever definition is put on "fun", 99% of the people need more stable boats.

3. People wanting the latest and greatest is indeed part of human nature but that doesn't mean that it is always the best way to approach a sport especially when we think that surfski paddling we need to teach seamanship, strategy and behavior. Anyway, I don't recall anyone going against people wanting the latest. The focus is on what "the greatest" means in terms of outcome for a normal person and almost never is it the tippiest boat.

4. I agree totally.

Regards
Boyan

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