Search for SOT K1

4 weeks 1 day ago - 4 weeks 1 day ago #35229 by mamaru
Search for SOT K1 was created by mamaru
Hello altogether!

The weather being foul, I start dreaming of next year...

Does anyone know other SOT K 1s beside these two:

Epic K1T  (is there any new information?)

Carbonology Feather ?

I am looking for something really narrow and tippy with very low profile strictly for flat water which should be available in Middle Europe.

I exclude the Nelo Viper 46 Ski from this list because for me it is much too stable and I always stumble over  the "box" in the middle ( best seen around 3:00 min ).

Thank you for sharing your knowledge so freely on this forum!

Matthias from Germany

   

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3 weeks 6 days ago #35247 by mamaru
Replied by mamaru on topic Search for SOT K1
199 views and NOT ONE REPLY?! Has this ever happened before?! Is my quest thus doomed to
fail in misery?! Really nobody knowing nothing?! Please!!

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3 weeks 6 days ago #35249 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Search for SOT K1
There is a kayak centre buzzard that is a more stable sot k1, but kayak centre is no longer in business. I know of no others. 

Is there a reason you need the boat to be 520 cm? If not there are plenty of tippy surfskis to choose from, and you can always pad the seat higher. A nelo 560 is almost as short as a k1 and with 5-10 cm of seat pad should be as tippy as a k1. If you can find the old 560 it will be as tippy as a k1 with no seat pads needed. 

I own a carbonology feather. It is an extremely challenging boat to remount as it is tippy and has a very deep bucket. I mention this because if you are interested in a SOT k1 for increased safety in cold water, you had better practice your remounts or there will be no advantage over an open K1. 

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3 weeks 5 days ago #35263 by mamaru
Replied by mamaru on topic Search for SOT K1
Hallo zachhandler,

thank you for answer! So there really seems to be little hope to find such a boat… Yes I wanted it for increased cold water safety on flat water. And yes, I could take a surfski, but I always feel bad keeping an ocean-going vessel strictly in such a species-inappropriate environment. And as I am told, K 1 still have that alluring little speed- advantage over skis.

As a last chance, I asked Vajda whether they can build such a hybrid to order, I mean, they do have both in their making. (For me, Vajda is simply closer by than Epic).

Thanks again for caring!

Matthias

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3 weeks 5 days ago #35264 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Search for SOT K1
My flatwater and small chop ski is a V14 and since I'm no pro I feel that its perfect for what I use it for.  Plus remounts are no hard, it's very comfortable for me and the glide is excellent.

I have also read on this forum that unless you are sprinting, K1s really don't have a speed advantage over something like a V14 or possibly a 560.

Also consider resale.  I can only imagine a ski would be easier to resell.

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3 weeks 4 days ago #35268 by mamaru
Replied by mamaru on topic Search for SOT K1
There are few ski- and K1- drivers around in this area, and even less who know both, so there is limited information. My source gave me the following numbers:

K1: 12,5kmph (10 km average on shallow water) (11,5 kmph with less fitness)

Nelo 560: 11,8 kmph (10,5 kmph)

Nelo 550: 11,4 kmph

Viper 46 ski: 10,4 kmph (9,5 kmph)

and clearly, psychology is part of the game: It’s much cooler sitting in a sports car in the traffic jam than in a family van.

This resale thing, well, I did not take that into consideration yet, but it’s true, I should.

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3 weeks 4 days ago #35270 by TomVW
Replied by TomVW on topic Search for SOT K1
Hi Matthias,

As a Nelo 550 owner, looking to maybe "upgrade" to a Viper 46, I wondered how you came to the conclusion that the Viper 46 would be almost 1kph slower than the 550. Did your source paddle all these boats to get to these numbers?

For the record, my average speed over 10km on flatwater in the 550 is between 9.8 and 10.4km/h, depending on the mood of the day. I had hoped that the viper 46 would be a bit faster for flatwater training due to the K1T hull, but your data seems to bury my hopes...

Tom

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3 weeks 4 days ago - 3 weeks 4 days ago #35271 by Impala
Replied by Impala on topic Search for SOT K1
Hi, the speed differences look quite big (yes, this is disappoiting news for the lovers of sports cars). But what I instantly believe is that the (new) Nelo 560 is noticably slower than a standard K1. Its flatwater speed potential is simply overrated in my view (I shortly owned one myself). The 560 has a bad speed-stability ratio as compared to other Elite skis. Try it in direct comparison to an Allwave CX, for instance ...
Almost each Lake Constance Marathon (where K1s battle surfskis) shows that Elite Skis are just negligibly slower than K1s on longer distances, if at all. You really got to have the power to sprint a K1 to enjoy its advantages on shorter distances. The problem is that almost all Ski manufacturers make their elite models long and their beginner and intermediate models models short. The Epic V11 and the Fenn Surge are recent exceptions. There was also the CS Atom, which was quite a tippy beast and did not sell for that reason, and is no longer available.

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3 weeks 4 days ago #35272 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Search for SOT K1
I agree those speed estimates don’t seem right. Greg Barton estimates about 0.5 kph difference across the entire epic range from k1 to v8 for experts and about half that for intermediates who get less benefit from a faster hull. There is probably nobody else on earth with Barton’s combined knowledge of kayak design and paddling physiology. 

http://www.surfskinews.com/news-2016-decjan-2017/2017/1/30/updated-epic-surfski-speed-comparison-with-greg-barton

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3 weeks 4 days ago #35273 by mrcharly
Replied by mrcharly on topic Search for SOT K1
Those speeds seem wrong to me. 

I generally paddle a K1 in water that is no more than 3-4ft; I regard that as shallow. It has a noticeable drag on the boat.
I'm not a fast paddler, and 10kph is a 'cruise speed' for me. Something I can comfortably keep up while talking, sustain for 40km while talking. 

10.5 is my 20km speed with a tad more effort, 11kph if I'm going for tempo.

If you want some cold-water safety for inland use, why not do what most K1 paddlers do in the winter and paddle a more stable boat? It is pretty common for people who race in a stab 1/2 boat to step down to a stability 4/5 boat for winter training.

You could look for a stability 6/8 boat. Plenty stable, remountable from the water, even deep water if you know what you are doing. 

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3 weeks 2 days ago #35292 by mamaru
Replied by mamaru on topic Search for SOT K1
For me this speed discussion is very exciting, even the more, as I find so little absolute numbers for speed in the WWW. On my behalf I can only admit that I do not manage to paddle as continuously as I would like, and the difference between two days seems nearly as big as the difference between boats. But what I can say is that the difference between the slowest and the fastest kayak/ ski I know is much bigger than the 0,4 - 1 kmph given in the tables ( I tried to convert the times of the above Epic Surfski Comparison and https://tcsurfski.com/2018/11/30/epic-v5-v8-v10-speed-comparison/   into kmph):

                              Greg                                                  Intermediate                                   TC
V 5 RM                                                                                                                                       9,17
V 6                        12,86                                                 11,15
V 7                        13,00                                                 11,23
V 8                        13,10                                                 11,29                                                 10,62
V 8 pro                 13,26                                                 11,45
V 10 SP 2G           13,43                                                 11,56
V 10 2G                13,65                                                 11,61                                                 10,94
V 10L 2G              13,70                                                 11,61
V 12 2G                13,77                                                 11,59
V 14                      13,85                                                 11,54
Legacy ICF           13,79                                                 11,39

And I simply don't want a stable boat, I want a supercool und unstable, yet safe boat!!
 

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2 weeks 6 days ago #35323 by Tinus
Replied by Tinus on topic Search for SOT K1
Why do you want it to be a SOT?

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2 weeks 6 days ago #35328 by manta
Replied by manta on topic Search for SOT K1
You already mentioned the boat

carbonologysport.com/product/feather-sot-k1/

I cannot paddle the feather as I am not able to remain upright. However I have chatted to a fellow where they sell all the carbonology boats including the feather. This guy paddles an elite ski and has also paddled the feather. He knows I cannot paddle the boat so was not trying to sell me anything.
The feather flies, if you can balance it, faster than an elite ski. An elite ski is 42cm and the feather is 35cm wide. It is a proper K1 shape that you sit on top of precisely for safety. 

Try and get a test of the feather at least then you can see  for yourself what the speed potential is.

M

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2 weeks 2 days ago #35345 by mamaru
Replied by mamaru on topic Search for SOT K1
Hallo Tinus, hallo manta,

sorry for answering delayed, too busy with a new job!

Why I want a SOT? I came into paddling late, after a shorter period in touring boats I accidently fell in love with a CS Vault. It took me a month of daily trying to come back dry the first time, but from that time on I had the dream of being able to stay upright in a fully- grown racing K1. I am able to ride a marathon K1 by now, and would like to take the last step. From what I experienced I know there will be a fair amount of swimming again, and I find it tiresome to empty and reboard a K 1 in waters about a meter deep. How much easier is this with a surfski! But I do not know of any ski being as tippy as a K 1 beside the old Nelos (which I do not know and which are out of production, as far as I know) and the Feather (that boat was far beyond my abilities a few years ago when I had the chance to try one. Might be better now, but the next place to put a hand on one is a long days drive away). I have tried Epic V 14, Stellar SES, Nelo 560, CS Pulse... and then started to look for a K 1 hull with a SOT- deck. I had thought that there must be something around, that others might know something or would be interested, too, but it seems I have been mistaken. What a pity!

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2 weeks 2 days ago #35347 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Search for SOT K1
Mamaru it sounds like your options are CS feather, epic K1T, or nelo 46. You know how tippy the feather is. K1T will be just as tippy. My advice would be to get the 46 unless you really like swimming. 

K1 is and obscure sport. Surfski is an obscure sport. SOT K1 is the smallest of areas where the two intersect. I am not surprised that it is hard to find people who have paddled one. 

Whatever you choose, good luck with it and let us know how it works out. 

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2 weeks 2 days ago #35350 by Jef58
Replied by Jef58 on topic Search for SOT K1
From the description on the Carbonology site, it looks like the Feather is designed for a specific arena of paddling. I would love to see more K1's with this option, but in my case, trainer types. I will never be able to paddle a boat like this and I'm assuming anyone who can does not need a SOT for flat water fitness or competition. I give anyone who can paddle boats like this a lot of credit, let alone in choppy conditions. I personally would prefer more options in a  SOT K1 for the weight and length as a second boat as I don't get much downwind stuff in central western Florida that the ski is made for.

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2 weeks 1 day ago #35351 by mamaru
Replied by mamaru on topic Search for SOT K1
@Jef 58: That’s just what I think! I guess there are much more people who have access to flat water than to rideable waves, and I cannot understand why there are so few models to choose from. The hulls are there, and you would think that it should not be so hard to put a surfski- well in, isn’t it?
 
@Zachhandler: Thank you very much for your comprehensive review of the CS Feather! I would love to try one again, just hesitate because of the long journey. Did anyone hear more of the Epic K 1 T?

As I wrote in the beginning of this thread, and sorry so to say, the Nelo 46 Ski is not for me: from the pictures on the web- site it seemed TO ME the ugliest boat I have ever seen, from the video (and reality proved is) it seemed TO ME the strangest hull design I have ever seen in factory- made boats, and when I tried one nevertheless, FOR ME it felt broad, dead- stable and and like a bath- tub. I went to pick one, and just left disappointed. It doesn’t help me that it’s highly praised in the Forums…

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2 weeks 1 day ago #35353 by Jef58
Replied by Jef58 on topic Search for SOT K1
mamaru, a question about the Nelo 46...from the videos it appears the hull is on the flatter side. I always thought K1 hulls were pretty round. That is the issue I have with my Think Eze , it has a pretty flattish bottom which, to me, acts funny in choppy water. In comparison, my Knysna CLK with a rounder hull is much better in sloppy water. My search is to find a rounder hull in a 17ft length in place of the Eze in which I can drop in the water off my condo property.

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2 weeks 1 day ago #35354 by mrcharly
Replied by mrcharly on topic Search for SOT K1
jef58, not all K1s have a rounded bottom.
It is pretty common for designers to stick a square section on a hull to give an initial feeling stability for beginners. As you have noted, this results in a hull that is horrible in small chop. 
A very narrow hull can be fine in some chop and many K1s are like this. How narrow? Well, I've just bought an old (delta shape) boat that won't stay upright by itself. Put on flat water and it doesn't float upright, it falls over.
That boat was just fine paddling through some minor boat wakes though, hardly moved.

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2 weeks 1 day ago #35357 by mamaru
Replied by mamaru on topic Search for SOT K1
@ Jef58: Well, I always understood it this (very much simplified) way: a hull, that has a high initial stability, is very much related to the SURFACE of the surrounding water. If that surrounding water starts to tilt (chop, waves…), the boat cannot but tilt, too. A hull, that does not relate to the surrounding water, e.g. a round pole, will not be affected. 
Now almost all boats have differing cross sections across the length, add bow and stern rocker, and it starts to become complicated. But the general rule in my view should remain true. As for the Nelo 46, to me it looks like a slim boat being no matter costs build initially stable: with a parallel- sided, flat, box- like section in the middle. I would be very much interested to hear the designer explain that shape!

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